[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by turbo69bird

My point was that guys being honorable and showing an SR block or dropping in an equivalent block but w a differnt stamp ,or differnt VIN , shouldn’t get hammered while guys restanping get top dollar .

.

Originally Posted by turbo69bird

Well I wouldn‘t say my car would bring less money as a STOCK race car

I have no idea what your car is worth. In fact I don't even know what car your talking about. You implied previously it was an issue (with other folks) because the original engine has parted ways since day two (because it was a race car) ..... You stated cars without original engines "shouldn't take a hit" ..... so it would be logical to assume (using your words) that a car that was missing it's original engine because it was a racecar would most likely take a hit because it's missing it's original engine... I'm assuming you mean hit as in less money.

Regardless I'm sure it's a great car and glad to see you're enjoying it.

[turbo69bird]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

I have no idea what your car is worth. In fact I don't even know what car your talking about. You implied previously it was an issue (with other folks) because the original engine has parted ways since day two (because it was a race car) ..... You stated cars without original engines "shouldn't take a hit" ..... so it would be logical to assume (using your words) that a car that was missing it's original engine because it was a racecar would most likely take a hit because it's missing it's original engine... I'm assuming you mean hit as in less money.

Regardless I'm sure it's a great car and glad to see you're enjoying it.

Well if you meant because of the engine Block that’s not how it read to me., you said it would be worth less because it was a race car (nothing about the engine) like it had an affliction. Lol

Then listed a bunch of race cars one with 500 miles that’s worth nothing. Compared to other rare 455 HOs then Stan antlocers , wangers car . Etc .

I remember when this was the narrative that somehow race cars were lessor cars and it annoys me .

Most times a dealer owned race car was a specially built car . Mines no exception . Tom nell was involved in these Stephens cars as with others . There’s an article in Jan 72 where they talk about that .

Here’s a prime example of a specially built race car for a dealer, the 68 RAII Stephens GTO and my car were the same way. Usually you can tell because they will be radio delete and in 68 heater delete .(69 heater delete wasn’t allowed by government mandate for defrosters) But the special prep goes further than that .

If you were talking solely about the engine block that’s a valid point, I personally don’t think it should be that’s why they made SR blocks to replace a RAIV or what ever equivalent engine with what was considered the same. But it didn’t read that way to me .

Il truly can’t stand when I see a beautiful race car backed w back door factory support, campaigned by a dealer restored STOCK and boring. What a waste!

[Formulabruce]

MACN has some day " 2" Pontiacs usually.
Since Covid, the amount that some pay for a "Toy" is much higher now and can be in the 80' s.
The amount of folks that want something " Done" , Right or not, is higher than ever.
Subjectivity will sell at a good price, and there are more buyers than investors.
We are in an era when some investor cars are keeping up with inflation, and others are keeping up with Boomers with their eye on their high school ride.
On the latter, buyers don't care what it was. They care what it is, or appears to be to them. This drives price.
If they buy a built up TA that was a base and it looks the part and has what it should, the insurance CO. Will insure it for what it is, vs what it was. Not talking a #1 car here, but a very nice #3 car.
Why do they do this? Because even a rebuild, tribute, etc costs A LOT to build. Paint alone ( minus body work) can set you back 15k for a quality job.
So if someone likes a car built the way THEY like it, they will pay more.
Put a bolt in ( no mods) 5 speed in a 4 speed #3 all original car and wow, value went up 7k.
Due to costs to build , the line between an invest and a " investment Driver" is now blurred.

[RamAirBirds]

One last point on the "coin" example.
Anybody that has been into the numismatist world would know that it is virtually impossible to fake or even slightly "clean" a coin and not have the experts know. This is why they have extensive grading companies the best being PCS. Several years ago i sent some coins to them to be graded only to find that some of them had been cleaned. Could not even tell with our eyes. They can tell even if a coin has been washed. They know and thus the entire community would know. Any coins of value only have that value if they are "graded" by only a handful of reputable companies. They are then SEALED in a hard plastic case, assigned a number and then recorded in a database for public view. The restoration of coins and cleaning of coins does happen but almost always for a private collector who just wants to have a "better piece" It will never pass muster any further than that.
Now with a Rebody? Much easier to pull off and have nobody know. No grading companies with high powered microscopes involved.
A Block stamping? Easier to identify that as broach marks exist that are pretty hard to replicate (at least in the Pontiac's). Many experts out there study stampings on blocks (Chevrolet World) and few people stamping blocks bother with trying to replicate those. Although we know there are several variations and fonts.
If a car like a TA goes thru an auction and misses basic things like a correct body tag (which can be reproduced legally) than it truly is buyer beware. I bet if one dug deeper into a car like that there would be all sorts of tell tale signs. This is why Mecum creates a hold harmless clause.
Again this post was just to discuss the impossibility of faking or even cleaning a coin without detection. Might as well sand off one of those Buffalos legs.

[Cliff R]

"Maybe someone can explain why an original stamped carburetor or distributor sells for good money but restamps are a dime a dozen?"

Only poorly uneducated buyers are paying the big bucks for "fake" RAIII and RAIV carburetors. I've had scores of them sent here, a few are still out in the shop as the owner went another direction and didn't even pay shipping to have their expensive "restamp" sent back to them.

Also realize that there are a LOT of Service Replacement Ram AIr carbs in circulation, part numbers 7028276, 7029270 and 7040270. They bring good money but far LESS than an original dated unit with the correct Plant Code and Julian Date on it. Although politically correct for a Ram Air car auto or manual that's missing the original this still might take away from the value some, depending on what the new owner is wanting and expecting from the car.

I'd also add here that most of if not all the Ram Air carburetors on Chuck's RAIV cars will be the real deal, because I did them here. Over the course of 20 years or so Chuck hired me to restore Pontiac RAIV carburetors. For most of those years we never discussed who's cars they were for or where they were going to end up, just the engine details so I knew that they werent' headed for some ill-fated build where the owner dished the pistons and put a Comp XE-274 cam in it or some "whiz-bang" fast ramp short seating timing crap to supposedly bring back all the lost power (common practice) instead of the original high compression set-up and real RAIV camshaft.

I actually had no idea that he had a "collection" until a couple of years ago, and sort of put two and two together and figured that the carbs I'd been restoring for him had ended up on some of them.

Chuck NEVER sent a non-Ram Air carb here or asked me to restore a "restamp" or even worse restamp one for him. He knows enough about them to know the real deal from a fake and every single one sent here was for sure the real deal.......FWIW.......

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"Maybe someone can explain why an original stamped carburetor or distributor sells for good money but restamps are a dime a dozen?"

Only poorly uneducated buyers are paying the big bucks for "fake" RAIII and RAIV carburetors. I've had scores of them sent here, a few are still out in the shop as the owner went another direction and didn't even pay shipping to have their expensive "restamp" sent back to them.

Also realize that there are a LOT of Service Replacement Ram AIr carbs in circulation, part numbers 7028276, 7029270 and 7040270. They bring good money but far LESS than an original dated unit with the correct Plant Code and Julian Date on it. Although politically correct for a Ram Air car auto or manual that's missing the original this still might take away from the value some, depending on what the new owner is wanting and expecting from the car.

I'd also add here that most of if not all the Ram Air carburetors on Chuck's RAIV cars will be the real deal, because I did them here. Over the course of 20 years or so Chuck hired me to restore Pontiac RAIV carburetors. For most of those years we never discussed who's cars they were for or where they were going to end up, just the engine details so I knew that they werent' headed for some ill-fated build where the owner dished the pistons and put a Comp XE-274 cam in it or some "whiz-bang" fast ramp short seating timing crap to supposedly bring back all the lost power (common practice) instead of the original high compression set-up and real RAIV camshaft.

I actually had no idea that he had a "collection" until a couple of years ago, and sort of put two and two together and figured that the carbs I'd been restoring for him had ended up on some of them.

Chuck NEVER sent a non-Ram Air carb here or asked me to restore a "restamp" or even worse restamp one for him. He knows enough about them to know the real deal from a fake and every single one sent here was for sure the real deal.......FWIW.......

Good info Cliff. My point isn't questioning the authenticity of Chucks carburetors. I'm trying to figure out if it's not an issue to restamp a block, why would re-stamped carburetors sell for less money than an original? Also where does the restamping stop? Vin, firewall, frame etc..... A properly calibrated re-stamped carburetor would perform better than an original factory calibrated carburetor... So wouldn't that be a better choice for say a million dollar Chevelle that has a re-stamped original looking engine block.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Every detectable Block Restamp I ever see is an issue to me.
If you can't detect it - well you didn't get a chance to have an issue with it.
Houdini fooled us all I guess.
NEXT

I haven't heard yet that it was a consensually accepted practice in Pontiac circles.
But it definitely goes on , and on, and on again.
You better be DAMN good at it
I would say as far as Pontiacs , high majority are very poorly executed.
It hurts the cars pretty bad so far on ones that have been detectable.
Bad publicity is only good in Hollywood.

Another correct block/engine from another car that is untampered is a great and honorable honest replacement.
SR's can really be fabricated easier than any other.
They don't thrill me very often.
But they have become the path of least resistance / least controversy.
If they have pictures in bare cast iron that looks acceptable I would give them a rubber stamp approval.
Usually they don't have any pictures like that.

[turbo69bird]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Another correct block/engine from another car that is untampered is a great and honorable honest replacement.
SR's can really be fabricated easier than any other.
They don't thrill me very often.
But they have become the path of least resistance / least controversy.
If they have pictures in bare cast iron that looks acceptable I would give them a rubber stamp approval.
Usually they don't have any pictures like that.

Try finding a usable WH that’s not being sat on , it’s not an easy task.

I’ve been watching and inquiring for years because I do consider that another great option.

But I know the as cast C118 is what the car was raced with ,,
Those cast numbers are what they are, an L67 and nothing else . May not have a WH or a vin for my car on it , but it’s a legit L67 and pretty much that part is un- fake-able/ verifiable .

My SR block is traceable to its original spot in Stephens race Stash as something was done to it that is verifiable as Is My RAV pro stock dual quad engine it’s the same way.
So I personally am pretty happy with my blocks/ engines options for my car .
Probably, Not such a bad problem to have which to use in your low milage Real RAIV car your RAII , RAIV or RAV I believe they call that “first world problems.” Lmao

[turbo69bird]

When I was discussing dealer installed 428s this is what I was thinking of from royal .

Very cool car .

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

A few noteworthy TA's took home good money today

71 TA White with a replacement 400 engine & Automatic = 73k Hammer
71 TA White 455HO Auto = 100k Hammer
74 TA White 455cid Auto = 80k Hammer