[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by Singleton

I'm thinking that with the engine out and flywheel off, that you could better determine if it's leaking at the main or the pan using the smoke tester. Maybe with engine upside down, (oil drained of course). Was any type of anerobic sealant used between the main cap and the block surface before bolting down? Oil can migrate there also.

Excellent point and that can be a bitch of a leak to find. On a recent IAII aluminum engine< I had a leak there with the anerobic sealer in the joint. Only a smoke test would find it. With the flywheel off and the smoke on, it was roaring smoke out of that interface on both sides, very obvious. I sealed it with RTV from the outside and retested. Leak gone. Pontiacs are very difficult to seal 100%. A real challenge.

[77 TRASHCAN]

Pontiacs and many other old school engines are a challenge. Mechanics, in the day, I've heard, really disliked the ford 360/390/428 stuff...

[mgarblik]

FE Fords are tough as well. Different challenges from a Pontiac. They have a flat oil pan which is much easier to seal than a Pontiac. But they have those stupid reverse Welsh plugs for the cam in the rear. Big oil leakers. Also the deep block has those tough to deal with rear main cap side seals that always want to leak. That half cylinder head/intake manifold interface is super heavy and difficult to seal. Don't get me started on the SOHC version. All the chain covers, gaskets, water/oil, what a nightmare. Honestly one of the easiest engines to seal up is an old school SBC IMO. Tons of fasteners and good spacing on the oil pan. Good factory rear main seal. Only challenge on them is the terrible, cheap, flimsy front cover and the 4 tiny bolt valve covers. The Japanese engines of the 1970's really pushed the American manufacturers to step up their game in the engine sealing area. My first experience with an OIL PAN rusting out was when I worked at a Datsun dealer. That would never happen on an American engine of that time. They were all leaking oil so the pan would never rust.

[Verdoro 68]

Originally Posted by Singleton

Was any type of anerobic sealant used between the main cap and the block surface before bolting down? Oil can migrate there also.

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Excellent point and that can be a bitch of a leak to find. On a recent IAII aluminum engine< I had a leak there with the anerobic sealer in the joint. Only a smoke test would find it. With the flywheel off and the smoke on, it was roaring smoke out of that interface on both sides, very obvious. I sealed it with RTV from the outside and retested. Leak gone. Pontiacs are very difficult to seal 100%. A real challenge.

Regarding the main cap mating surface, I used a smudge of Right Stuff black RTV. Is there something better I should have used?

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by Verdoro 68

Regarding the main cap mating surface, I used a smudge of Right Stuff black RTV. Is there something better I should have used?

I personally don't use "Rite Stuff" very often. It is a rock hard setting RTV. In that application, it would probably work fine. Just a tiny dab. If not leaking there, I would leave it. If you end up having to remove the main cap for a main seal, the recommended sealer for that area is an anerobic, (seals without air), gasket replacement gel. Like Locktite 515 or similar. It is a very thin red gel. It is made specifically to go between two machined surfaces and sets-up when air is removed. My only gripe with "Right Stuff" is it is so hard setting, it's nearly impossible to remove a sheet metal part sealed with it without bending the hell out of an oil pan valve cover or lifter cover. I just like the softer setting RTV's which seem to work just fine for me. My favorite is Valco RTV made in Cincinnati, OH. Second favorite would be the Permatex Ultra series stuff. Everyone has their favorite.

[78w72]

Permatex ultra black/grey is a very goood RTV for almost any engine/gasket application, can be used as a gasket maker or gasket dressing. Excellent quality, cheap priced & available almost anywhere including walmart.

[Verdoro 68]

It wasn't the pan.

It wasn't the oil filter adapter.

It wasn't the distributor.

It wasn't a valve cover.

This is a good one.

Remember that I thought I saw little pieces of rear main poking out?



If you guessed completely roached rotated and squished rear main seal, you're the winner!

I'm actually surprised it held as much oil as it did with that big of a gap. I'm guessing I didn't pack the seal as well as I should have. I bought another graphite seal just in case it was the rear main, but I'm wondering if the one piece BOP would be a better move after all? Ugh.

[Gach]

Personally I like graphite seals better. When I put them in I use a rolling pin on both block and caps, to pass them in. If something works for you and never had a issue then I don’t change it. I’m guessing it just wasn’t packed in well enough. Just be sure to fill in those little holes in block and if any in the main cap with high heat silicone. Kind of same stuffed guys use on headers, Well there actually not holes be divets

[Verdoro 68]

If you use a rolling pin, I definitely didn't pack it well enough. IIRC, I used a big socket to press it in place.

I didn't fill the holes in the block or the cap. I actually made sure to remove all the RTV that was there from the previous two piece installation. I thought you were supposed to leave the holes for a graphite seal so it can grab and fill them for the one and two piece?

[lust4speed]

I would offer that the seal was too tightly packed. All other rope seals work better being compressed and bunched up into the grooves before being rolled down. If you preload the seal where it becomes fatter it will grab the crank no matter how much you try and roll it down, and it will squish up like what is in your photos. If you really pack the seal it will melt from friction. I've found it works much better to simply lay the Teflon rope in place and roll it in.

Yes on leaving the holes empty. Fill the rotation holes with RTV only when installing the Viton seals.

[Gach]

Are we talking about 2 different kinds of seals. graphite seal Or teflon rope. It could very well be, that using a big socket doesn’t put even pressure as a rolling pin dose. I don’t know I’ve always filled the holes. Never once had a issue. Been doing it that way for allot of years.

[Gach]

In your first Photo looks like from the picture, that were the hole/divet was that making seal not having equal compression. By trying to fill that void making seal Out of round…. egg shape so to speak. Taking a crank that completely round trying to seal and out of round seal. Under load. Thats why I fill the divots. The graphite seal isn’t like the old rope seal. Hey all I can tell you is that its worked for me never had a issue.

[steve25]

If it where not for the oil slinger lip you would have really had major mess!
Very surprised you only had a mist.

[Verdoro 68]

Originally Posted by steve25

If it where not for the oil slinger lip you would have really had major mess!
Very surprised you only had a mist.

It was more than a mist, but yeah, I'm surprised it wasn't gushing all the time. The smoke didn't lie, that's exactly where it was pouring out. The rest of the engine is sealed up perfectly. Not a drop or a sign of a leak anywhere.

Originally Posted by lust4speed

I would offer that the seal was too tightly packed. All other rope seals work better being compressed and bunched up into the grooves before being rolled down. If you preload the seal where it becomes fatter it will grab the crank no matter how much you try and roll it down, and it will squish up like what is in your photos. If you really pack the seal it will melt from friction. I've found it works much better to simply lay the Teflon rope in place and roll it in.

I remember reading some old posts of yours where you had one of these seals fail. I tried to follow your guidance and roll the seal in carefully. What tools or methods have you used to place these seals successfully? They generally have a pretty high success rate. I clearly did something wrong, now I just have to figure out where I messed up.

Originally Posted by Gach

In your first Photo looks like from the picture, that were the hole/divet was that making seal not having equal compression. By trying to fill that void making seal Out of round…. egg shape so to speak. Taking a crank that completely round trying to seal and out of round seal. Under load. Thats why I fill the divots. The graphite seal isn’t like the old rope seal. Hey all I can tell you is that its worked for me never had a issue.

This is a graphite seal. Here's what it looked like when I installed it. I suspect some seal material got compounded in that anti-rotation hole as the seal rotated. Looking back at my pics I used a 3/4" deep well socket to roll it in place.

[steve25]

Part of your problem might have stemmed from using only a 3/4 socket, I use a 1 1/4” which does a much more even job of compressing it all.

I would still however put a dab of sealer in each diviot.

[AG]

Originally Posted by Verdoro 68

It was more than a mist, but yeah, I'm surprised it wasn't gushing all the time. The smoke didn't lie, that's exactly where it was pouring out. The rest of the engine is sealed up perfectly. Not a drop or a sign of a leak anywhere.



I remember reading some old posts of yours where you had one of these seals fail. I tried to follow your guidance and roll the seal in carefully. What tools or methods have you used to place these seals successfully? They generally have a pretty high success rate. I clearly did something wrong, now I just have to figure out where I messed up.



This is a graphite seal. Here's what it looked like when I installed it. I suspect some seal material got compounded in that anti-rotation hole as the seal rotated. Looking back at my pics I used a 3/4" deep well socket to roll it in place.

The seal looks kinda long, did you use a large journal seal in a small journal block? I think the small journal is thicker than the large journal seal.

[Gach]

Looking at your original installation pictures the seal definitely wasn’t compressed enough

[Vid]

Dang. I’m glad you found the issue but sorry it’s not an easier fix.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sirrotica]

I've got 2 pieces of tubing that are the same size as the journal, one for large journal, and one for the small journal. Lay the seal in the groove and rap it a couple times with a hammer to seat it in the groove, trim the ends and just a light dab of RTV on the rope ends. I've never used a socket or such to "roll a rope seal" into the groove......

There are Kent Moore tools to do this same operation, but in absence of the actual tool this is the same way the factory manual tells you to install them, tap them into the groove with a round sleeve.

Link to You Tube showing at 8:30 tapping the seal in with the sleeve in a Pontiac with the Kent Moore sleeve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qXo9pW6nEo

This is the same way I've been doing them for decades, they nearly always seal following the factory procedure. Buick, Olds, and Pontiac all use the same type seal along with quite a few other brands of engines. Many industrial applications use this same type of packing to seal a rotating shaft against many fluids also. When I worked in maintenance in a few shops over the years you'll see this type of seal. That's where I first saw graphite impregnated rope is in an industrial setting.

[Gach]

You can see in the video after he’s hammered that piece of pipe compared to the one in your picture of your original installation. How much the rope is compressed. Also when I say fill in the divots you can see there’s no way outer edge of the divots can be filled in, so it still helps stop ration. The pipe or what ever he’s using is a good idea, but you can achieve same thing with a rolling pin. That looks like kid of a special tool for doing it. Because of the diameter of the rolling pin, you could also tap it with a hammer, its a good video though gives you a good Visual of how compact seal needs to be.