[i82much]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

A lot of truth there. Thanks Cliff.

Many on the Forums are just buyers and have minimal actual Engine/Trans/Rear Axle
experiencel.

Tom V.

proud to say i have personally blown up all three!!

[Stan Weiss]

I am not on Facebook. But it sounds like it is no different than most internet forums. Beware of who you listen to, as there a lot of bad advice given.

Stan

[steve25]

Shimming the gear to body is certainly not going to create a problem as long as you still have some clearance when the motor is fully up to temp.

And of course the later Aluminum body Distributors will expand more and might need .002” more clearance.

[Tom Vaught]

Steve25 A question for you: So how many OEM Ram Air IV cams have you personally
run in YOUR engine???

I ran one, when at the university, for about 6 months but mostly stuck with solid lifter cams, (Flat Tappet) from Comp Cams and Crane.

Tom V.

[Cliff R]

"I know who your referencing Cliff and I fully agree.

You can tell by what he post up that he has never driven a car with anyone else’s tune or set up to experience the faults in what he believes in and preaches."

I'd add here that the reason this guy called here was to buy bigger jets for his Quadrajet. He had drilled them out past .080" and it was still too lean. The carb he was using would have been fine witht 73 or 74 jets in it but I didn't get a chance to tell him any of that. It was the most one-sided conversation I've ever had with someone who called here.

There is a Forum member here who comes in at a close second. You know the type, they ask a question, and when you give them the answer, then they very quickly remind you that they already knew it and had been doing it that way since Moby Dick thought he was a minnow. After the second or third question and they already knew MORE about it that you do I'm DONE, and take steps to make sure my conversations with folks like that don't last any longer than it took me to type this!.......FWIW......

[steve25]

Tom I have run a total of 3.
One in 2 different 400s and one in a 455.

The first one I ran was out of a factory RA4.
They guy I got it from had just picked up the ( a 22k milage car ) and could not wait to stuff a solid Isky cam in the motor.

I personally rode in the car and knew that the cam and lifters where good so I got both for 40 bucks way back then.

This was early on in my Pontiac days and my car a 4 door heavy Tempest ran like a dog with its 3.23 gears.

I then got a 400 GTO took out that same cam and this time ran Rhoads lifters and enjoyed that car very much since it had 3.55 gears.

The next RA4 cam I ran was a Crane version in a 455 with # 96 casting heads.

If your referring to my comments to Cliff about timing I was referring to a fellow on the board who preaches that no one with a street car ( no less a street strip car needs to run vacuum advance, in fact at times I think if you lived close enough to him and had a street car he would sneek by at night and rip it off your Distributor!

He sounds like he’s on the edge and disturbed!

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

You're not going to believe this but I have made significant progress with my High Temp. issue. This Engine loves Water wetter product, the test prior to this last one had some in it, but there was not enough of this product in the Block to make a difference at that time. This product claims to lower Temps. by 30 degrees F in the entire Engine and a total of 70 degrees in the Heads. Therefore, the first set of Temp. test Numbers of Engine Temps. are possibly 15 degrees lower in the Block and 30 degrees lower in the Heads. The latest readings declare that I gained another 15 degrees using the product, overall, in the Block and another 40 degrees in the Heads.



Pulling the advanced Timing out of this motor from a proven 113.5 to 109.5 has made the over advancement ghost knocking sounds disappear miraculously. It turned out to be the sounds of over advancement, that I was "not" familiar with. The ghost noise from the cracked Harmonic Balancer Hub was a separate issue and is gone too, with the purchase of a new hardened Hub version kit. That HB noise was truly amplified when I installed the Dryer Hose over my Tail pipe, at that time this Vehicle was in the garage tent. I believe that the accident that I had, by driving over the root under my friend's driveway, caused a chain reaction of damage throughout the drive chain, the ghost noises (both HB and over advancement of the Cam) never manifested themselves, until post-accident.

This Engine is Ignition Timed to 6 degrees BTDC, as per the factory recommendations, for a Pontiac 428 ci Motor, according to what I have read over the last 10 years.


This Engines Ignition was timed @ 6 degrees BTDC prior to recently returning the proven Cam timing to 113.5 from 109.5. Then we checked the Initial Ignition Timing and it moved to 10 degrees BTDC, without touching anything, especially the Distributor, why? We returned the Ignition Timing back to a factory setting of 6 degrees BTDC where it seems to work just fine for our purposes.

I am thinking that mathematically speaking 10 degrees - 6 degrees = 4 degrees that we moved the Cam timing that had the effect on the Initial Timing change?

I can only theorize the above statement because, that according to my directions that came with my advanced Timing Gear/Chain kit, were correct in stating that the Crank Gear is notched in two-degree Increments and each one of the Crank degrees corresponds to one at the Cam.

Thus: 8 degrees @ the Crank is equal to 4 degrees @ the Cam. The math is as such, correct me if I am wrong, please. 10 degrees BTDC that my Engine became Initially Timed to by pulling the Cam Timing completely out, going from 109.5 to 113.5 may have caused the Initial Timing to go from 6 degrees BTDC to 10 degrees BTDC, whereby having me to correct for this change in Cam advancement? I had to physically return the Ignition Timing back from 10 degrees BTDC to a factory setting of 6 degrees BTDC. We use a Timing Light, RPM gauge Meter box and a Vacuum gauge with the Vacuum plugged off. Was this to be expected, because this is new territory for us? Since the Ignition Timing is separate from the Cam timing or so I have read. I did not expect one to affect the other that way?

On a special note, my I/P gauge is reading 30 degrees hotter than the actual readings, using my Lazer Gauge. Last night's two Runs for a half-hour each, did not overheat. I think that the Water wetter allowed the Engine to get to its operating Temp. sooner, as well as the change in Timing, "not" allowing the Motor to run too hot. The 421 and Pontiac mods seem to keep the Heads and Block too an even Temp. throughout the system. Possibly, I can attribute some of the lower Temps. to these mods as well. It is impossible to differentiate which change did what when one makes this many changes at once. Overall, I think we are back to a tolerable performance running Vehicle. I am still going to use Rec-89-90 for now. I want to get this Trans. Broken in first, before I change or try 93 Octane unleaded with 10 % Alcohol. Also, I still have my secondary Elec. fan out in front of the Condenser, plus the side kick out front when or if they are needed. Further Testing at highway speeds to come soon, testing on Very hot days is required to see actual progress. As far as playing around with my distributor at this time, this is "not" happening, there is plenty of time for that in the future. I have all the rebuild parts in stock. My MSD Electronic Ignition is factory Timed @ 6 degrees BTDC and we are all in at 38-39 degrees by 3000-3500 RPM. In the future, I want a faster curve, say all in by 2000-2500 or so I have read.

I am posting the various Temp. areas that we have been testing at, so you can see the changes that we have incurred and where.


Too much advance at the Cam, plus add in the Head remanufacture, that included shaving smooth its surface, was just too much change, for this Motor. I learned that a street Motor is not like a race Motor, I never needed the Advance in the Cam when the Melling Factory already installed 1.5 degrees into the Cam from the factory. The Cam was designed by experts, I got caught up in the Hype, don't let it get you, learn from my mistake please. Street cars are driven on the streets and need different tunes, unlike a race car that is driven on a trailer to the race. Street/race does not exist, one or the other, that's what I learned, anyway. JMO. Mike out.

P.S. Now that this Engine is working, I feel that the lower end has zero Ghost noises in it and upon various inspections over the last 10 years it does not have to be rebuilt on the bottom end yet...Let's see how long it lasts. The fact remains that whoever turned the pistons around is proven by forum members to me anyway that it is a race thing and I truly have a race motor, that just happened to belong to a moon Shinner, who? We will never know. The story prevails.

[steve25]

Evan’s brand coolant works even better then water wetter if you can afford the price tag.

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

This Engines Ignition was timed @ 6 degrees BTDC prior to recently returning the proven Cam timing to 113.5 from 109.5. Then we checked the Initial Ignition Timing and it moved to 10 degrees BTDC, without touching anything, especially the Distributor, why? We returned the Ignition Timing back to a factory setting of 6 degrees BTDC where it seems to work just fine for our purposes.

I am thinking that mathematically speaking 10 degrees - 6 degrees = 4 degrees that we moved the Cam timing that had the effect on the Initial Timing change?

The distributor is driven by the cam. Changing cam timing does change ignition timing.

Why are you so against recurving your distributor? Yours is way off in my opinion. You have too little initial, and too much total, advance. A proper distributor setup is essential to performance, cooling, mileage, etc.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by steve25

A mill rate of .010” on an open chamber head takes off
Exactly 1.66 CCs.
It takes the removal of 4 CCs to get a solid 1/4-point increase in compression.

Mike rationalizes:
Since My Heads were shaved some when remanufactured recently. If Factory said that the 428 ci HO is 10.75: 1 CR out of the box, but realistically less, equaling say 10.5:1, we can add a quarter point back in to my closed chamber Heads and we are back at 10.75:1?

[steve25]

It’s all guess work until one takes the time to CC each chamber on a head that has a valve job done to it and or has also had new valves installed.

Just a valve job could add between 1 to close to 3 CCs to the chamber volume depending on how much the valves where sunk, then on top of that dish face valves might have been used which could add another 1.5 CCs to a chamber with the large 2.11” / 1.77” valves.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by JSchmitz

The distributor is driven by the cam. Changing cam timing does change ignition timing.

Why are you so against recurving your distributor? Yours is way off in my opinion. You have too little initial, and too much total, advance. A proper distributor setup is essential to performance, cooling, mileage, etc.

I will break in the Trans. first and then I will move on to the Distributor next in line of things to accomplish. I do have the rebuild parts to do this project. I just thought it ran as good as it should, as is. I have read about "how to curve the dist." I am just adamant of making any more race type changes to this Engine that are not needed on the street. like over Timing the Cam "Soga" that I just spent too much time on, just to be back to where I started. Don't get me wrong, I want to learn about these types of procedures, as long as I can truly benefit in doing so, in my case it is street use only. For example, learning how to use the degree wheel and advancing Cams, etc... At least I now know that the Melling manufacture of my "041" Cam correctly milled the part, even though I installed it straight-up at the end.

You said:
"You have too little initial, and too much total, advance."

Mike wants to know: "what is your suggestion of what my dist. should be built/timed to?" I have read about many different timing numbers over the years. One member also claims that it is a waste of time to recurve the dist. for the parts, like springs are inferior metals. Other forum members state that only the 7 second 4 cyl. rocket cars need this kit, etc... Not a 4,000 lb Vehicle like mine. For these reasons I have put the recurving of my dist. on hold, until now, I will consider it after I prove that I have no more problems.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by steve25

It’s all guess work until one takes the time to CC each chamber on a head that has a valve job done to it and or has also had new valves installed.

Just a valve job could add between 1 to close to 3 CCs to the chamber volume depending on how much the valves where sunk, then on top of that dish face valves might have been used which could add another 1.5 CCs to a chamber with the large 2.11” / 1.77” valves.

Give me your best estimate, I won't hold you to it. In my possession is one cracked Exhaust Valve that was removed and it is flat, two Exhaust seats were replaced as well and the remaining Valves are stock flat ones as well. I use the large Valves on my 1967 428 ci HO 670 D-port closed chamber Heads. A picture of my Pistons and Valves are in this post for you to look at, if you need to. Would it be out of line if I thought that I could be any higher than 10.75:1 CR?

[78w72]

He stated .010 milled off the heads is equal to 1.66 CC reduction, and that it takes 4cc to increase compression 1/4 of 1 point on those heads... so basic math says the compression was increased less than 1/8 of 1 point, not 1/4 of 1 point. Then add in the other numbers mentioned for valve job etc & you are actually lower than the guess of 10.5 and nowhere near 10.75.

Also, water wetter temp reduction claims are over rated from my experience using it and what Ive read from other real world experience... the "up to" 30° temp reduction is for using pure water, as you increase the amount of anti-freeze that number drops a lot, so if you have any % of anti freeze its not reducing the temps as much as claimed... and why are some numbers on that chart actually higher than before adding it?

& BTW, there are countless STREET/RACE engines on here & out in the world, guys have been building dual purpose cars for decades... a basically stock 428, even with backwards pistons and slightly advanced cam timing is NOT a race motor.

[tom s]

FWIW,pretty much all my iron heade 9.5 engines I have my dizzy set up to run 12 init with 36 total and all in at 2000.Tom

[Tom Vaught]

Since I have run aluminum heads from the time Butler/Edelbrock first came out with them, my original cast iron heads have been stored on a shelf. Probably forgot 99% of what to run with a cast iron head.

That being said, as I could buy Pontiac cams thru my Uncles Pontiac dealership, I bought them cheap and used the profit to run Comp Cams Solid Lifter stuff and CMC Cams.
Probably bought 30 of the factory RA-IV cams over the years (for people) but there are better cams out there. (Camshaft Machine Company). #2 guy in Engineering was a Pontiac guy. His stuff was always top notch. Glenn Corwin RIP.

Jim Brady broke the lifter bores out of a Factory Block with too aggressive of a camshaft.
And occasionally I still see the lifter bore support stuff in members engines.

More to building a proper durable engine vs just putting a RA-IV camshaft in it.

Tom V.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 78w72

He stated .010 milled off the heads is equal to 1.66 CC reduction, and that it takes 4cc to increase compression 1/4 of 1 point on those heads... so basic math says the compression was increased less than 1/8 of 1 point, not 1/4 of 1 point. Then add in the other numbers mentioned for valve job etc. & you are actually lower than the guess of 10.5 and nowhere near 10.75.

Also, water wetter temp reduction claims are over rated from my experience using it and what I've read from other real-world experience... the "up to" 30° temp reduction is for using pure water, as you increase the amount of anti-freeze that number drops a lot, so if you have any % of anti-freeze its not reducing the temps as much as claimed... and why are some numbers on that chart actually higher than before adding it?

& BTW, there are countless STREET/RACE engines on here & out in the world, guys have been building dual purpose cars for decades... a basically stock 428, even with backwards pistons and slightly advanced cam timing is NOT a race motor.

Mikes reply:
What you say is true about the Water Wetter product, I read the same things. I had gained 15 degrees with only some WW in my system. Using full amount with antifreeze and distilled water in a street Vehicle to lube the water pump and keep out rust in an Iron Block, what alternative do we have but to use the additives? As far as some Temp. numbers being lower. We asked ourselves that same question. Ans. It depends on what area you are testing. Remember that the WW gets on the inside of the water pump and Radiator and Heads, keeping that in context now view the reasons and try to make sense of the why's of it all, we did!

You said:
"& BTW, there are countless STREET/RACE engines on here & out in the world, guys have been building dual purpose cars for decades... a basically stock 428, even with backwards pistons and slightly advanced cam timing is NOT a race motor.

Mabe "not" a race Engine by today's standards, but in the 1950's-60's, when STOCK CAR Races, meant just that. One would go to the Pontiac shop and buy the TriPower Carbs. with the associated Cam "OTC" and purchase the Intake to go with it. These parts are considered to be race ready, because they were purchased "OTC" at the dealership, OfCourse.

Mikes 1967 428 HO Motor may have been bought "OTC" and was upgraded in 1968, by a pro-Mechanic, that even dated his job on the 428 ci HO P.S. Head. Note: in 1967 the Motors EUN number was not yet part of the Vin. number and technically this is a YK code Block that equals Auto. 4 bbl. This Engine received a 1956 specific special Tri-power Cam, exclusively mated to the Intake/ Carbs. That can only be bought "OTC" by the public and that public would have to know what those parts were good for, perhaps a racer would know these things. If one spends the money and time to install the pistons backwards, it only stands to reason that he would have Blue printed and balanced the reciprocating parts. I know first-hand that my own father did B+B his (2) 427 ci Chevy Corvette Engines that he raced in the SSCCA in 1966 and 1968. I will "not" know for sure if my Motor is B+B until I rebuild the lower end of this motor.

In my case the Motor has a build date stamped under the P.S. Head depicting MM/DD/1968, which is when a mechanic upgraded the motor to race condition of that era. Keep in mind the first thing that Royal Pontiac did was to buy the GTO without a motor and have the dealership send over a crate what? 428 ci Pontiac HO Tri-power Engine and they could Blue Print that Motor and apply the upgrade tune-up to the Motor prior to installing it into the Vehicle. This way it was a factory car with all the warrantee to go with it.

[78w72]

78w72 reply: WW with antifreeze in a Vehicle will not lower the Temps as Claimed, I got a real world drop of Maybe 5° using a 30-40% mix of antifreeze. your tests are also not perfect, you cant point the temp gun at the head near the exhaust with air blowing over it & consider that a result of WW, all that really matters is what an accurate Gauge reads or shutting the Engine off & Pointing the Gun at the T-stat housing... other Random places on The engine/head/rad cap at random times With air moving over them isnt Accurate.

And the temp differences I see On the lower Part of the chart are HIGHER with WW, not lower... but as long as YOU think you Made sense of It thats All that mAtters...

You said that race cars are driven on trailers to the track & that no street engine can be a race engine... regardless of Years there are many engines built a LOT more "racy" than your mostly stock engine... 500+hp engines that Run on pump gas and Run low 11's or Even high 10's and They drive to & From the track and all Kinds of miles on the street!

Apparently a moonshiner/mechanic that turned 7 of 8 Pistons backwards back in 1968 is a Racer ??

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by 78w72

Apparently a moonshiner/mechanic that turned 7 of 8 Pistons backwards back in 1968 is a Racer ??

Actually back then it was very common in race engines where you had to run stock pistons to install ALL 8 pistons backwards.

Stan

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 78w72

78w72 reply: WW with antifreeze in a Vehicle will not lower the Temps as Claimed, I got a real world drop of Maybe 5° using a 30-40% mix of antifreeze. your tests are also not perfect, you can't point the temp gun at the head near the exhaust with air blowing over it & consider that a result of WW, all that really matters is what an accurate Gauge reads or shutting the Engine off & Pointing the Gun at the T-stat housing... other Random places on the engine/head/rad cap at random times with air moving over them isn't Accurate.

And the temp differences I see On the Lower Part of the chart are HIGHER with WW, not lower... but as long as YOU think you Made sense of It that's All that matters...

You said that race cars are driven on trailers to the track & that no street engine can be a race engine... regardless of Years there are many engines built a LOT "racier" than your mostly stock engine... 500+hp engines that Run on pump gas and run low 11's or even high 10's and They drive to & from the track and all Kinds of miles on the street!

Apparently, a moonshiner/mechanic that turned 7 of 8 Pistons backwards back in 1968 is a Racer ??

Sure, race car drivers drive the car to the track and I for one drove in the Corvettes that my father raced and drove to work.

A better way to say that my car is not a race car, it is a street car. Just because I have a full race Roll bar in it and full sub frame connectors and race seats and belts for the car in stock etc... does not mean it is a race car, however it is legal at some tracks to race, but it is not a race car, get it...

By the way I read the instructions that came with my Lazer Temp. finder, they stated that one could place black elec. tape over any area that is not black for the best reading. The main thing is I am finally on my way back to driving this Vehicle in two years, thanks to all you people that helped, thank you all for your support, it may have taken longer than it should have but as I said that we have jumped over each and every hurdle to get to where we are today and learned a lot along the way.

P.S. I don't think air across any part one measures with a Lazer Temp. gauge matters while the motor is running, because the internal Temps. are constant, the light beam is directly absorbed into the material it is pointed at and that is why the Black tape is used. Once you turn off the Motor heat soak starts and the Temps. Just go up from there, it is best to check when the Engine is running and the coolant is flowing and is released to the atmosphere via the Radiator both through convection and Conduction.

You said:

"Apparently, a moonshiner/mechanic that turned 7 of 8 Pistons backwards back in 1968 is a Racer"??

Mikes reply: His name is Speed Racer and his brother is Racer X, and then there's Spider...Just conjecture...