[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Actually back then it was very common in racing engines where you had to run stock pistons to install ALL 8 pistons backwards.

Stan

Mike asks:

"Would this be because the Pistons purchased in the aftermarket only had two valve reliefs"?

It seems that the matter of the Rods being installed backwards, may not have happened, if one had extra Rods in stock. Those that assume other than that are not thinking out of the box. There is more than one way to skin a cat. However, in my case I can't reason why a mechanic installed 7 Pistons backwards while the #2 Piston was in Installed as factory. Why not get the correct part and install #2 to the rear direction, that's what he should have done to be consistent. There he cut a corner; I believe. However, how could #2 cyl. ever be a problem when it is factory correct.

[P@blo]

22 pages and counting and we have nothing. Not even ignition let alone lift off.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Since I have run aluminum heads from the time Butler/Edelbrock first came out with them, my original cast iron heads have been stored on a shelf. Probably forgot 99% of what to run with a cast iron head.

That being said, as I could buy Pontiac cams through my Uncles Pontiac dealership, I bought them cheap and used the profit to run Comp Cams Solid Lifter stuff and CMC Cams.
I probably bought 30 of the factory RA-IV cams over the years (for people) but there are better cams out there. (Camshaft Machine Company). #2 guy in Engineering was a Pontiac guy. His stuff was always top notch. Glenn Corwin RIP.

Jim Brady broke the lifter bores out of a Factory Block with too aggressive of a camshaft.
And occasionally I still see the lifter bore support stuff in members engines.

More to building a proper durable engine vs just putting a RA-IV camshaft in it.

Tom V.

I have read about the kit to add to that exact area, but since the HP that I have is 376 out of the box up to one inch per cube in my case, it is "not" necessary yet, in my case to reinforce that Vally area. I like what they do with that area on the Ram Air 5 Blocks today!

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by P@blo

22 pages and counting and we have nothing. Not even an ignition let alone lift off. : popcorn:

What do you mean, my car is running noise free and cooler, the forum and I have won again, enjoy your popcorn because listening to me you will need it, Ha...

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Actually back then it was very common in racing engines where you had to run stock pistons to install ALL 8 pistons backwards.

Stan

Stock Pistons, I read that wrong, they have 4 Valve reliefs!

[78w72]

Many other members on here have "street cars" that they also race, i have a 500+hp pontiac in one of my cars that is built as a street car, but I can drive over an hour away to a drag strip in summer temps and do a bunch of low 11 sec drag races all day long then drive it home... cant really put a label on street cars these days, many street cars are faster than dedicated drag cars, it all comes down to what the owner wants to do with it, i was just replying to your statement that a race car is driven on a trailer then to the track, get it...

& BTW, your car is "legal" to race at any track, NHRA or track rules are mostly based on the time the car can do and a couple other basic safety rules like seat belts and a radiator overflow catch can, a 13-14 second car can race just about anywhere.

Your "lazer temp" gauge is most likely just a infrared temp gun with a laser pointer, the red laser isnt whats reading the temp nor does the light get absorbed into the material, air flow over that area will effect the reading since it is cooling the part somewhat, just like exhaust heat will effect the temp on any area of the side of the head. Also shutting off the engine then measuring within a few seconds doesnt let heat soak change the temps much if any and only a few select areas are needed to determine engine temps or compare to the gauge, measuring the side of the head that is within a few inches of a header or exhaust manifold is not one of the areas.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Place Tested Test One Test Two (11/3/23)

Temp. Sender 180 F 180 F
Radiator in 185 180
Radiator Cap 145 130
Radiator out 150 145
Wate Pump inlet 175 160
Thermostat housing 195 180
Intake crossover D.S. 160 140
Cyl. Head 3+5 Exh. 370 330
Oil Press. sender 175 165

Note Test # One has some Water Wetter, Antifreeze and water.
Note Test # Two has a full Bottle of Water Wetter, 50% Antifreeze and Distilled water.
Note Test # 2 Ambient Temp. is 70 degrees F, night time.

Header Flange 440 Degrees F.

Trans. Temp. Test One Test Two

Sender out 170 F 165 A Exit converter
Return in 140 145 B Exit Radiator
cooler out 100 105 D Exit Trans. Filter.
cooler in 130 125 C Exit cooler 2

Note: The Trans. cooler is located in the Radiator, plus a second one in line is located in the air stream. Consider that the Radiator cools the Trans. fluid. So, it soaks in the heat from the Trans./Torque Converter and moves that heat to the air or atmosphere. Total Trans. cooling is 60 degrees F. Water Wetter Improves the Trans. cooling as well as the oil cooling. I believe that the Remote Trans. Oil Filter is acting as a cooler, under the Vehicle, located in the air stream. So, do all the lines. The large Trans. pan that we installed, also dissipates heat to the atmosphere.

Power Steering
Pump

Out 150 F 150 F
in 130 140
case 150 160

Note: The P.S. pump uses its own cooler and filter located in the air stream and has nothing to do with the Water Wetter system...

I have oil Temps. to provide, in the near future, there are four in line coolers and a remote filter on that systems part's combination.

I spent a lot of time writing this to end up all crunched together, sorry the forum text program protocol ruined my work.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Teamwork makes the dream work .... lol

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

I will break in the Trans. first and then I will move on to the Distributor next in line of things to accomplish. I do have the rebuild parts to do this project. I just thought it ran as good as it should, as is. I have read about "how to curve the dist." I am just adamant of making any more race type changes to this Engine that are not needed on the street. like over Timing the Cam "Soga" that I just spent too much time on, just to be back to where I started. Don't get me wrong, I want to learn about these types of procedures, as long as I can truly benefit in doing so, in my case it is street use only. For example, learning how to use the degree wheel and advancing Cams, etc... At least I now know that the Melling manufacture of my "041" Cam correctly milled the part, even though I installed it straight-up at the end.

You said:
"You have too little initial, and too much total, advance."

Mike wants to know: "what is your suggestion of what my dist. should be built/timed to?" I have read about many different timing numbers over the years. One member also claims that it is a waste of time to recurve the dist. for the parts, like springs are inferior metals. Other forum members state that only the 7 second 4 cyl. rocket cars need this kit, etc... Not a 4,000 lb Vehicle like mine. For these reasons I have put the recurving of my dist. on hold, until now, I will consider it after I prove that I have no more problems.

I understand car struggles very well. lol

I would try 12-14 degrees initial and 34-36 total timing. Try to get total timing about 3-3,500 rpm (combo dependent). Get good factory distributor weights and center cam. Do a little research. Lots of information on good factory parts. Then use aftermarket springs to get the curve right. Do some test and tune to find what your car likes. Different combinations of vehicle weight, gears, converter, compression ratio, etc. like different curves.

[JSchmitz]

^^^ Assumed, possibly incorrectly, that you are using a factory distributor. lol

Also, do NOT waste one minute of your time trying to use ANY aftermarket weights and cam! Make sure your advance mechanism if free and not binding. Make sure your weight pivot bushings are good etc.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by JSchmitz

^^^ Assumed, possibly incorrectly, that you are using a factory distributor. lol

Also, do NOT waste one minute of your time trying to use ANY aftermarket weights and cam! Make sure your advance mechanism if free and not binding. Make sure your weight pivot bushings are good etc.

The Dist. has a factory number on it and it came with the 428 ci motor that I have. It has been converted to Elec. Ignition prior to my purchasing this project. My current timing is 6 degrees BTDC and I am all in by 3000-3500 now, why change it and how can I use what I bought in parts kit best?

The kit has weights and springs and (some say) to use my Factory Weights, because they can be milled to better, closer and tighter tolerances. I have a document in my archives that depicts that procedure. I have also been told to use my original springs with the ones that came in the kit. Then there is the stop device that I bought, it is Black, off round and has a corrugated edge. I also bought an adjustable Vacuum Canister. The directions are included with all the various parts, thank God. It has been a while since I read those directions though. I have saved lots of information on tuning the Engine, there must be at least 3 or 4 that sound true. Am I really, by the seat of my pants, going to feel or see a difference in performance without having to test and tune on a race track?

[tom s]

OK,set your timing at 12 degrees,disconnect the VA and see how much total advance.Tom

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

We took the extra time to measure both the Transmission and Motor Oil Temps. along the routes that their fluids travel, mainly to learn for ourselves, at what Temp. and where those Temps. in heat degrees are conducted through coolers, lines, Filters and Pans to the atmosphere through Convection.

On this Vehicle we removed the Motor Oil Filter from the bottom of the Motor and moved it to a remote area out in front of the P.S. front Fender area and attached to the Fender. The man I bought this second-hand project had made a hole in the front of the Radiator support to allow air through. We placed the remote Motor Oil cooler in that direct path and attached a Doughnut adaptor between the filter and the Oil filter remote adaptor. The oil flows from the lower Engine adaptor to Block, that has two ports one is out and one is input. Oil then flows into the Doughnut adaptor through a one-way valve first, then into the filter and out to the four oil coolers, that are in line, then back into the bottom of the Moter, where the Filter originally was factory positioned. There are in and out fittings at that junction made of Brass attached to lines using Teflon tape to stop leaks.

(1) Hot Oil is removed from the Engine and pumped through the output fitting adaptor to the Remote Oil fitting located at the P.S. Fender. That Temp. is measured @ 400 degrees F.

(2) Oil flows through the remote Filter and the Temp. @ the inner Filter is 375 degrees F.

(3) Oil Temp. @ the line to cooler #1 is 370 degrees F.

(4) Oil Temp. @ #1 Largest Radiator type cooler is 360 degrees F.

(5) Oil Temp. @ #2 smaller Radiator type cooler is 280 degrees F.

(6) Oil Temp. @ #3 custom made 18" x 3/4" copper pipe type cooler is 230 degrees F.

(7) Oil Temp. @ #4 custom made 18" x 3/4" copper pipe type cooler is 200 degrees F.

(8) Line back to the bottom of the motor is 190 degrees F, return input Brass fitting Temp. is 180 degrees F, into motor.


Note: Total Motor Oil cooling is 400 degrees F (-) 180 degrees F = 220 degrees F, using Water Wetter, 50/50% Antifreeze + Distilled water and the Pontiac and 421 mod. This test is using the original factory fan + fan shroud and large elec. cooling fan in front of the condenser unit. 68 degrees F. ambient Temp. outside. We had the hood open to take the measurements. The Motor was operating with a 180-degree 3-hole bypass Thermostat with a Truck type HD Temp. Fan Clutch. Radiator is a copper factory type unit too.

Note: We did "not" use the large elec. garage type Fan in this test, called Squirrel cage by us. Nor did we turn on the additional Sidekick water cooler installed in front of the D.S. Radiator support, where the former owner made a second hole through this area. We installed a squirrel cage 110 elect. fan via an inverter installed in the Trunk, to operate it. The sidekick is a smaller Radiator on the outside and the elec. motor runs it from the inside that draws the air through just in case you are in stop and go traffic or worse, you are stopped at one of the many Bridges we have here in south Florida.

Also, we reduced the clearance in the water pump by using the Pontiac water pump mod., years ago, whereby the water actually jumps across the Radiator top, as viewed with the Radiator cap removed.

[Kenth]

Have you ever wondered how Pontiac was able to build 100's of millions of cars that functioned decently without all the crazy modifications on your car?

However, it is your car and you do what you want, but it might be a good idea to get a Pontiac Service Manual and learn how to service the engine/car in a sensible way.

JMHO

[steve25]

Pontiac or any major auto manufacturer!

Don't take this the wrong way Mike, but if like recommend in the above post you spent as much time with your nose in a factory service manual as you do writing up your long winded replays things would be better for you.

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

The Dist. has a factory number on it and it came with the 428 ci motor that I have. It has been converted to Elec. Ignition prior to my purchasing this project. My current timing is 6 degrees BTDC and I am all in by 3000-3500 now, why change it and how can I use what I bought in parts kit best?

The kit has weights and springs and (some say) to use my Factory Weights, because they can be milled to better, closer and tighter tolerances. I have a document in my archives that depicts that procedure. I have also been told to use my original springs with the ones that came in the kit. Then there is the stop device that I bought, it is Black, off round and has a corrugated edge. I also bought an adjustable Vacuum Canister. The directions are included with all the various parts, thank God. It has been a while since I read those directions though. I have saved lots of information on tuning the Engine, there must be at least 3 or 4 that sound true. Am I really, by the seat of my pants, going to feel or see a difference in performance without having to test and tune on a race track?

You absolutely will feel a difference when you get the timing right. As tom S said, set your initial to 12 and check your total timing. Make sure to disconnect the vacuum advance (as already stated). Then you will need a dial back timing light or a marked balancer to check your total advance. If you have a factory balancer, you can mark 34 degrees, for example, and use that as a total timing reference mark. I had mine marked at 36. Or get a timing tape for your diameter balancer. Easy enough to figure, or measure, the circumference and divide by 360.

[P@blo]

Originally Posted by Kenth

Have you ever wondered how Pontiac was able to build 100's of millions of cars that functioned decently without all the crazy modifications on your car?

However, it is your car and you do what you want, but it might be a good idea to get a Pontiac Service Manual and learn how to service the engine/car in a sensible way.

JMHO

I have digital copies of Pontiac Service Manuals if Mike would like to save time and face. He'd have to promise not to attempt to rewrite them though.

My cars also ran hot when in a state of bad tune and remember a chasing the water wetter scam. The stuff should be called "fix your junk it's running too hot".

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by P@blo

My cars also ran hot when in a state of bad tune and remember a chasing the water wetter scam. The stuff should be called "fix your junk it's running too hot".

Water Wetter made no noticeable difference in my car. Should be called wallet lightener! LOL! It would probably make a significant difference vs. straight water. A surfactant I believe. Modern coolants should have it included.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

I have saved lots of information on tuning the Engine, there must be at least 3 or 4 that sound true. Am I really, by the seat of my pants, going to feel or see a difference in performance without having to test and tune on a race track?

Absolutely. To explain further without going into writing a book, Tuning, especially the timing curve, is felt more in the drivability aspect and not so much at the track. At the track, really total timing is all that matters there, so if you're looking for an optimal total timing number, then yes that's one way to find it.

The rest of the timing curve really comes into play with drivability, how well the car behaves in traffic, on the highway, hot starts, gas mileage, engine temps, part throttle drivability, including light throttle tip in and low speed idle conditions will all be affected with how you set up initial timing, the curve, the vacuum advance and how and where it comes in, and how much. Playing with these areas and finding what the engine really likes will give you excellent results in all those catagories. Makes the difference between a car that runs okay and gets from A to B to a car that runs absolutely fantastic. Without experimenting with this you'll never really know the difference.

For sure the factory settings are a bit lazy and meant to allow the car to perform well enough to satisfy, while at the same time complying with even a small amount of emissions compliance, but there is absolutely a lot left on the table in the drivability department.
Your engine, since it's not technically stock and has a RAIV camshaft, would most certainly respond well to a custom timing curve, as well as more initial. 6 degrees is really low and not optimal at all for a combination like that. That might work on grandmas 350 2 barrel, (even for that it's low) but not ideal for a camshaft with around 80 degrees of overlap.

[Cliff R]

+2

All of these engine have specific timing and fuel requirements and it is worth the effort to spend time in those areas if you want to get the most out of the combination.

Even with that said the parts sold to novice tuners are very poor quality and don't work as advertised. Those "hoaky" HEI kits and "adjustable" vacuum advance units are a perfect example. Complete waste of time/funds and WHY would you used a stepped cam on the BACK side of the VA to control movement when it needs to be on the other side of the arm to stop its total travel......DUH?

In any case and I'll add here that these super-quick timing curves don't cut it. I've removed countless aftermarket spring/weight kits from distributors and set them up with stock parts instead to correct tuning issues with these engines. Dumping ALL the timing on a well prepared street engine never has worked well dating back nearly 50 years when I got in this hobby and still doesn't work well today. Removing/eliminating VA doesn't work either. Even so countless numbers of these engiens are tuned in that manner and folks using those methods are quick to recommend them.

For what you are doing about all that is needed is a little "bump" in the base timing, tightening" up the curve just a tad and get it started right off idle and all-in by 3000rpm's or so. The overlap in that cam is going to favor adding some additional timing at light engine load, probably about 14-15 degrees would be a good place to start. If I were building your distributor here it would have 10 degrees in the mechanical advance (20 at the crank), and another 15 from the VA using a unit that's all-in about 11-12" vacuum. Then I could set the initial timing around 10-12 degrees and move forward from there.

When it comes to these topics I love real World stories so here goes.

Couple of weeks back I get a call from a guy who had his engine built and dyno'd by one of the big names in this industry. He claims it sucks WAY too much fuel for his liking and stinky. Says that on the dyno the folks doing the work had to go UP 3 jets sizes because it was "way too lean" during run-in. I was only getting involved because I sold him the carb kit and tuning parts, someone else installed them. So he's basically bellyaching and at the same time telling me I missed the mark on the tuning parts. So I asked about timing, specifically how much VA timing was being added.

He very quickly and firmly told me that those folks DO NOT use vacuum advance, they just put super light springs in the distributor instead. EURIKA, we have found the problem. You are MISSING about 15 degrees or so timing at light engine load so absolutely and for sure you are going to have to fatten it up some to compensate, problem discovered and solved. However that wasn't good enough and the customer still bellyached about it and told me that those folks have been doing this for decades and NEVER use vacuum advance.

OK, so they do it that way and have to deal with less efficiency and MORE fuel needs to run thru the engine to make it happy.......how is that my fault?

We never worked out a solution and the customer is just going to have to deal with heavier fuel consumption and running richer on the primary side of the carburetor.

As it relates here, vacuum advance is going to be your friend with the 428 engine and camshaft with over 80 degrees overlap. It's going to like, want and respond to a lot of timing at light engine load and be happy with around 44-48 degrees at cruise.......IMHO.

Total timing w/o VA with a higher compression engine on pump gas not so much. The big RAIV cam pushes peak VE up in the RPM range and flattens out the torque curve, which is all GOOD for what you are doing helping to minimize octane requirements at your compression ratio and quench distance. I still wouldn't throw a lot of timing at it and not early in the RPM range. You need to sneak up on thing s like that as it's better to fall a little short than to put rod bearings and pistons into the oil pan, even when they aren't all facing the RIGHT DIRECTION!..........FWIW......