[TRADERMIKE 2012]

[QUOTE=JSchmitz;6468273]

Originally Posted by MatthewKlein

X2

And being hyper-defensive on top of it. Someone with his knowledge/skill base should be monumentally humble.

I must say that I'm amazed that he rebuilt a transmission that apparently works!

Thank you for that vote of confidence, I don't want anyone to think that I am not trying the best that I can all the time, even If I am wrong. I am a Christion and I am humble, it is only when I am backed into a corner do I come out like a Cat scratching. So, be humble toward me and I will return the courtesy.

[Formulajones]

[QUOTE=TRADERMIKE 2012;6468284]

Originally Posted by MatthewKlein

Rebuilding this Engine is not going to happen until this Vehicle is upside-down with the tires toward the sky. I know that there is life in the bottom end yet to use, if you have read the entire post, would you see that?

I'm not one to be so quick to come to that conclusion. Like Cliff mentioned early on, and I agreed with, that knocking noise is most likely piston slap. It's not your flexplate, and everything else you chased didn't fix it. Piston slap does exactly what you describe, no load on the engine, sitting idling or revving, and making a knocking noise. As I said earlier, a video sure would help the other forum members.

Probably not what you want to hear but if the more likely cause is piston slap (pistons being in backwards doesn't help) that engine is going to need bored and new pistons installed to make it right. That means a full on rebuild is in your future if you want that thing straightened out. I hope you come to a satisfactory outcome but in the end, my thought is do it right once and rebuild it.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by tom s

With a thread about a cam who really gives a damn about any kind engine flush? Start a new thread. Tom

I don't care either, 2x that, I am only answering the person who won't give up on the topic, so let's both agree to disagree on the subject of Amsoil vs Trans. fluid in cleaning a motor, besides the Diesel fluid sounds promising in cleaning out an Engine, tested so? END OF THAT TOPIC, PLEASE. Mike out.

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

I don't care either, 2x that, I am only answering the person who won't give up on the topic, so let's both agree to disagree on the subject of Amsoil vs Trans. fluid in cleaning a motor, besides the Diesel fluid sounds promising in cleaning out an Engine, tested so? END OF THAT TOPIC, PLEASE. Mike out.

Why do you believe your engine needs flushed? Didn't you just have it completely torn down? It should be spotless inside.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

[QUOTE=Formulajones;6468287]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

I'm not one to be so quick to come to that conclusion. Like Cliff mentioned early on, and I agreed with, that knocking noise is most likely piston slap. It's not your flexplate, and everything else you chased didn't fix it. Piston slap does exactly what you describe, no load on the engine, sitting idling or revving, and making a knocking noise. As I said earlier, a video sure would help the other forum members.

Probably not what you want to hear but if the more likely cause is piston slap (pistons being in backwards doesn't help) that engine is going to need bored and new pistons installed to make it right. That means a full on rebuild is in your future if you want that thing straightened out. I hope you come to a satisfactory outcome but in the end, my thought is do it right once and rebuild it.

I won't argue with the point that someday this Engine will have to be rebuilt correctly, but now isn't the time. The one and only time that I drove a Vehicle with a clear rod knock, I can attest to what it sounds like. Also, the sound that is made by the Engine when Tuning, both by test driving and driveway tests. While turning the dist., pinging and the rest of those sounds too.

I have recently lost the sound or the Harmonic balancer with the replacement of a new complete kit, takes that scenario out of the loop. Now remains the last, I hope noise in the equation, possibly the Flex plate. I have already left a description of the next step from Butler Performance; I hope all of you have read that. So, once the parts come in, we will install them and it is my prayer that the Flexplate was the issue. If not and that recent noise is still there then I will make a video using my Android Phone for the forum, after all a picture is worth a thousand words, in this case an audio clip. The Windage Tray is the next possible part that could send a sound frequency through the Engine. As of now the latest vibration occurs between 1000-2000 RPM @ rest and driving through it between 1000 -2000 Rpm the sound disappears. When resting and revving the Motor, this latest vibration comes and goes at low RPM.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

How are your Intakes selling?

Think all of the ones he had cast up are gone and all are happy.
That being said, stick to fixing your engine, (Tom has been playing with the
Pontiac engine before you were born probably.)

Have a good day and get your engine fixed.

Tom V.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by JSchmitz

Why do you believe your engine needs to flush? Didn't you just have it completely torn down? It should be spotless inside.

Yes, it is, but we're closing that topic in this thread, because it happens to be a "worn-out topic" and I agree. Thank you for your cooperation on this request by Mike.

[JSchmitz]

[Formulajones]

I never said rod knock. Although I can't imagine those bearings being in that great of shape after running straight ATF through the engine. They are likely scored at a minimum, shortened life span at best.

What we've been talking about for a few pages now is piston slap. We already know it's not the flexplate. You found nothing wrong with it other than oblong/worn holes and that doesn't cause a noise.

Windage tray? Maybe but I doubt it. We already know the piston mishap with this engine, having some in backwards and one in the correct way, so that alone is a red flag to most of us. Someone dropped the ball there whenever it had been messed with the first time, and should have been addressed when you found it. Unfortunately I feel that thing need to come back apart completely and refreshed properly.

Yes a video would really help everyone. There are many of us here that have heard a lot of strange things with engines. Without a video we can only guess, but from descriptions you've stated up to this point, there isn't much left to guess at and it starts to narrow things down to what some of us have mentioned already. Fingers crossed it's simple, but at this point I'm thinking it's more involved.

[JSchmitz]

Get one of these and try to, more accurately, locate the noise: https://www.harborfreight.com/mechan...iABEgLIEvD_BwE

You can use a long screwdriver held up to your ear also. This cheap tool works better.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

[QUOTE=TRADERMIKE 2012;6468118] Cliff, I ordered the flexplate for my Engine because I did not like the rounded off bolt holes that were somewhat egg shaped. I also ordered ARP hardware for the job.

I thought while I wait for these parts to come in that I would ask you a question about the TH 400 That you helped me build, it works great and I want to know about the tolerances.

I pulled the data that I recorded from while I was into this TH 400.

Question is: I had .008" clearance @ the rear of the Case, measured using a micrometer and dial indicator. My research told me to have some .002" to .005" clearance in the "front more than the back" of the Trans. I loaded the rear output shaft using a piece of wood in between OfCourse, on a jack with the trans. on an Engine stand converted to a Trans. stand. This way, I isolated the front clearance from the rear clearance. The front clearance is .020" Total. As I said the rear is .008" and I was told to have: Plus .002 - .005" more in the front. I should be at (.010", .011", .012", .013") in the front.

Could this be the reason that I am forcing too much stress against the Crank Shaft and do you recommend I go back in and remove the front phenolic washer, behind the pump? I still have a variety of those phenolic washers to choose from, that will put me on to tighter tolerances in the front. Since this is my first Trans. build that would be the only possible thing that I could have done wrong to cause the Harmonic Balancer to Crack or to cause an issue with the Flexplate, due to my building the Trans. in the first place.

Other than that, the forum mentioned that the Windage tray could be cracked, however we did not notice any cracks the last time we pulled the oil pan, recently.

Mike wants to know:

CLIFF: I am reposting this post, on top, just in case you did not see it, down below. A question about my recent Transmission build, an important review of the Tolerances at the "FRONT" of the Trans. that could be affecting the "THRUST" on the Crankshaft, causing the issues that I am experiencing today, like the crack in the Harmonic Balancer and now this second ghost noise thought to be the Flexplate.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by JSchmitz

Get one of these and try to, more accurately, locate the noise: https://www.harborfreight.com/mechan...iABEgLIEvD_BwE

You can use a long screwdriver held up to your ear also. This cheap tool works better.

The price is rite also, we will get one this weekend, we used a hollow hose the last time we tested the Engine just before pulling the heads, that is how we determined that the Valves could be part of the noise issue and it turned out to be a cracked Exhaust Valve in three pieces.

A good thing we pulled the Heads when we did because the cracks were just below the surface of the Valve face and could have traveled and broken putting holes in the Piston or worse. Two Exhaust Valve Seats were installed, where they Siamese in the center, where it says "670" on the Heads. That tool would have helped in the diagnostics at the time. I like to have the rite tool for the job.

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

The price is rite also, we will get one this weekend, we used a hollow hose the last time we tested the Engine just before pulling the heads, that is how we determined that the Valves could be part of the noise issue and it turned out to be a cracked Exhaust Valve in three pieces.

A good thing we pulled the Heads when we did because the cracks were just below the surface of the Valve face and could have traveled and broken putting holes in the Piston or worse. Two Exhaust Valve Seats were installed, where they Siamese in the center, where it says "670" on the Heads. That tool would have helped in the diagnostics at the time. I like to have the rite tool for the job.

Hose is a great idea I hadn't thought of.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I never said rod knock. Although I can't imagine those bearings being in that great of shape after running straight ATF through the engine. They are likely scored at a minimum, shortened life span at best.

What we've been talking about for a few pages now is piston slap. We already know it's not the flexplate. You found nothing wrong with it other than oblong/worn holes and that doesn't cause a noise.

Windage tray? Maybe but I doubt it. We already know the piston mishap with this engine, having some in backwards and one in the correct way, so that alone is a red flag to most of us. Someone dropped the ball there whenever it had been messed with the first time and should have been addressed when you found it. Unfortunately, I feel that things need to come back apart completely and refreshed properly.

Yes, a video would really help everyone. There are many of us here that have heard a lot of strange things about engines. Without a video we can only guess, but from descriptions you've stated up to this point, there isn't much left to guess at and it starts to narrow things down to what some of us have mentioned already. Fingers crossed it's simple, but at this point I'm thinking it's more involved.

Mikes reply:

I have to ask, why would a Piston being installed as long as it has and under my own torture that I put on this Engine endure to 130 mph where I found all the internal problems and solved them over time. In the beginning the Rocker stud nut was cracked and I replaced them with 7/16" screw- in studs. While there, we installed the Johnson Hydraulic Lifters, a new oil pump and HD Chrome moly Push Rods, had a new timing Gear and dual chain.

The # 886 Cam was worn out, but who knew at that time. I had the Tri-power Carbs. completely rebuilt, by us OfCourse, using genuine Rochester parts that would have come in these Carbs. from the factory. We installed the 1/2" spacers under the Rochester's too. We had Air Induction as well and the Carbs. are up-jetted to a 428 ci Motor. So, this combo. at 70 mph, stomp on it the secondaries come in with the kickdown gear and I launch from 90mph to 120 mph throwing me back into the seat and moves slowly to 130 mph tops. Now you all tell me that I need to build the bottom end today, now?

I tell you this Engine is a monster and I still carry extra weight in the trunk due to the posi-traction W/ four-wheel Disc Brakes.

[Cliff R]

"CLIFF: I am reposting this post, on top, just in case you did not see it, down below. A question about my recent Transmission build, an important review of the Tolerances at the "FRONT" of the Trans. that could be affecting the "THRUST" on the Crankshaft, causing the issues that I am experiencing today, like the crack in the Harmonic Balancer and now this second ghost noise thought to be the Flexplate."

Transmission endplay will have nothing to do with applying thrust to crankshaft as the torque converter is in between. You just need some on both ends of the TH400. The range they will run in is really wide and not a problem area. Even so I shim mine down on the lower end of the range and have never had an issue either way.

This assumes that you correctly shimmed the new converter (if it needed it). Basically as that needed to happen was that you correctly engaged the converter in the stator, input shaft and oil pump inner gear and shoved it all the way back during installation. At that point a quick gap check between the converter and flex plate, then decide if it needed any shims or not. You don't need much clearance in that area as the converter isn't going to "grow" much in use. Too much is not a good thing as you are pulling the notched portion of the converter out of the oil pump inner gear. It still has a LOT of wiggle-room there and you've got to pull one forward quite a ways before it comes too far out of the gear and shears something off.

Your strange noises are no doubt piston "slap" from having most of them installed in the wrong direction. Had the EXACT SAME ISSUE with my fresh SBC 400 build when I pulled that dumb move. I had other issues which included more oil consumption than I was happy with for a fresh build with less than .002" piston to wall clearance and hand fitted Speed Pro oversize rings. As I told you several times on your long running thread that engine just never ran right and after 10,000 miles I couldn't deal with it anymore and pulled it out for inspection. Found the issue, put it back together the right way, noises gone, power restored and on to bigger and better things.

I tend to learn some pretty valuable lessons when I made blunders like that, so do my very best NEVER repeat them, plus pass on the info to others. Sadly in this case all the advice and DIRECT experience I provided to you went on deaf ears. You'd rather buy into some BS regurgitated theory (wives tale IMHO) that "racers" WAY back in the day reversed all their pistons so they could pull bigger wheelies and end up with the trophy at a bit event they were racing in. That moves makes no sense whatsoever then or now. You need to get back into this build and get ALL the pistons and rods in correct orientation. Only then can you move forward and accurately troubleshoot engine "noise" and other issues it's throwing at you.........IMHO.......

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Mikes reply:

I have to ask, why would a Piston being installed as long as it has and under my own torture that I put on this Engine endure to 130 mph where I found all the internal problems and solved them over time. In the beginning the Rocker stud nut was cracked and I replaced them with 7/16" screw- in studs. While there, we installed the Johnson Hydraulic Lifters, a new oil pump and HD Chrome moly Push Rods, had a new timing Gear and dual chain.

The # 886 Cam was worn out, but who knew at that time. I had the Tri-power Carbs. completely rebuilt, by us OfCourse, using genuine Rochester parts that would have come in these Carbs. from the factory. We installed the 1/2" spacers under the Rochester's too. We had Air Induction as well and the Carbs. are up-jetted to a 428 ci Motor. So, this combo. at 70 mph, stomp on it the secondaries come in with the kickdown gear and I launch from 90mph to 120 mph throwing me back into the seat and moves slowly to 130 mph tops. Now you all tell me that I need to build the bottom end today, now?

I tell you this Engine is a monster and I still carry extra weight in the trunk due to the posi-traction W/ four-wheel Disc Brakes.

Mike, How fast you think the car is doesn't really pertain to the state the engine is in. Everyone's perception of a fast car is different. It may run well enough in your eye's, and if that's satisfying for you then so be it. Piston slap doesn't have a huge detrimental affective on engine performance other than poor ring control, which may or may not be showing itself at this time. What it does do though is make an annoying noise that changes with rpm, sometimes goes completely away as higher rpm is reached and/or warmer temps. You'll just have to decide if ya want to live with it or rebuild the engine with a fresh overbore.

There has been a bunch of good advice given. Unfortunately some have told you what you wanted to hear and going down that path so far has not fixed your issues. It costs money, but eventually you'll have to bite the bullet and fix this thing right.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by tom s

With a thread about a cam who really gives a damn about any kind engine flush?Start a new thread.Tom

Well, he mentioned it so I was just trying to help explain some facts about using pure ATF in an engine... this thread has gone way off track of the initial cam question so I dont see a problem replying to things the OP mentions, sorry if that bothers you.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I never said rod knock. Although I can't imagine those bearings being in that great of shape after running straight ATF through the engine. They are likely scored at a minimum, shortened life span at best.

What we've been talking about for a few pages now is piston slap. We already know it's not the flexplate. You found nothing wrong with it other than oblong/worn holes and that doesn't cause a noise.

Windage tray? Maybe but I doubt it. We already know the piston mishap with this engine, having some in backwards and one in the correct way, so that alone is a red flag to most of us. Someone dropped the ball there whenever it had been messed with the first time and should have been addressed when you found it. Unfortunately, I feel that things need to come back apart completely and refreshed properly.

Yes, a video would really help everyone. There are many of us here that have heard a lot of strange things about engines. Without a video we can only guess, but from descriptions you've stated up to this point, there isn't much left to guess at and it starts to narrow things down to what some of us have mentioned already. Fingers crossed it's simple, but at this point I'm thinking it's more involved.

Mikes reply:

I have to ask, why would a Piston being installed backward for as long as it has and under my own torture, that I put on this Engine, endure to 130 mph. Where I found all the internal problems and solved them over time. In the beginning the Rocker stud nut was cracked and I replaced them with 7/16" screw- in studs , because I was bending the Factory Push rods. While there, we installed the Johnson Hydraulic Lifters, a new oil pump and HD Chrome moly Push Rods, had a new timing Gear and dual chain. I drove for about four years testing and tuning.

The # 886 Cam was worn out, but who knew at that time. I had the Tri-power Carbs. completely rebuilt, by us OfCourse, using genuine Rochester parts that would have come in these Carbs., from the factory. We installed the 1/2" spacers under the Rochester's too. We had Air Induction as well and the Carbs. are up-jetted to a 428 ci Motor. So, this combo. at 70 mph, stomp on it, the secondaries come in with the kickdown gear, working at this time, in synchronicity with the stock 13" Torque Converter and I launch from 90 mph to 120 mph. Throwing me back into the seat and then it moves slowly to 130 mph, tops. Now, all of you can tell me that I need to build the bottom end of this Motor, today, now?

I believe that the noises that I experience today, that I am eliminating one at a time successfully, I might add, will not beat me and if they do and all of you were correct, I will have to apologize. I am not afraid to build this Motor, I have the tools and the experience. I would use a Machine shop, where needed, because they have the tools that I don't have.

I tell you this Engine is a monster and I still carry extra weight in the trunk due to the posi-traction W/ four-wheel Disc Brakes.

By the way, when we removed the Cam # 886, years after we flushed the Motor with the ATF, the Cam Bearings did not have sufficient ware on them to be replaced and that is what I base the lower end on today, Crank Bearings, being as well of course. The Cam Bearing in the middle, had one light scratch in it, taken out with light scuff pad. So, we installed the new "041" Cam using the existing Cam Bearings. I did not know that when we installed the New Cam that we had an issue with the kickdown system, until rebuilt the Trans. The Detent solenoid wire needed repair and the Detent solenoid had to be opened and cleaned out of debris. We added a new seal to the Valve Body and tested the electronic switch.

There was another problem, so, we repaired the switch and added an LED light to the circuit. So that when we pull the plunger out of the switch and that light comes on, we know exactly where to adjust, when the light comes on, at a certain pull on the plunger and we can visualize where to make our adjustments more accurately. This is but one of the various innovations that we have made to this Vehicle, along the way. This Vehicle is a one-of-a-kind work of art to us. Thus, my original complaint about this "041" Cam is "null and void". Now that we corrected the High-end passing system that works on the Elec. Detent Solenoid, that is located at the Manual Valve Body, within the TH 400 Case.

Through the Case, the wire runs to the Detent switch at the Carb. area, attached to the linkage. I have yet to reach the new top end speed of this Motor combination, in this Vehicle, due to the fact that I don't have the speed rated tires installed in order to perform such a high-speed test. As I stated, at the start of this thread, I wore out the Cooper tires in four years at the rate of one per year, testing this Vehicle at high speed. I had no reason in putting my life in harm's way. I did not know this at that time, until the tires were separating on me, every year I had to purchase a new one.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Mike, how fast you think the car is doesn't really pertain to the state the engine is in. Everyone's perception of a fast car is different. It may run well enough in your eyes, and if that's satisfying for you then so be it. Piston slap doesn't have a huge detrimental effect on engine performance other than poor ring control, which may or may not be showing itself at this time. What it does do though is make an annoying noise that changes with rpm, sometimes goes completely away as higher rpm is reached and/or warmer temps. You'll just have to decide if ya want to live with it or rebuild the engine with a fresh overbore.

There has been a bunch of good advice given. Unfortunately, some have told you what you wanted to hear and going down that path so far has not fixed your issues. It costs money, but eventually you'll have to bite the bullet and fix this thing right.

The whole point that I was trying to make is, at that time, in those years, this engine had no noise and ran like a raped- ape. So, why should it be different today? I truly think that each and every issue that I am experiencing today is because of all the different changes that I have made over the years. This is not even close to the Engine that I started with, that I tested in, the first four years of my ownership. As I had then, I have to do today and just get past the auto curves thrown at me.

Deep inside the lower end is still the same Crank, Pistons, Rods etc..., strong and waiting to be unleashed like a Tiger in the Pontiac commercial. Unless the accident affected the Engine more than I think, that is why I have a question out to Cliff about the Trans. as we speak. I truly believe that there is nothing wrong with the bottom end of this motor. Unless I caused it, with the Transmission build, causing Thrust toward the Crank, by not having the exact tolerances at the front of the TH 400 that I should have, yet to see that answer, Cliff where are you? Mike out.

[MatthewKlein]

[QUOTE=TRADERMIKE 2012;6468284]

Originally Posted by MatthewKlein

If I knew everything, I would not be asking the Forum anything and I am experimenting as I learn, what is wrong with that? Have you anything to add about my current situation at hand that may solve my problems today? Rebuilding this Engine is not going to happen until this Vehicle is upside-down with the tires toward the sky. I know that there is life in the bottom end yet to use, if you have read the entire post, would you see that?

My Father taught me that a smart man does not know everything, he only knows how to find the answer and that is why I am here. Sorry but all of you can't be right all the time, I will pick and choose what is best for this project in a scientific manner. I simply must be allowed to grow and make mistakes when they happen, although my method works in the long run or I would not be where I am today. I am more knowledgeable than I was 10 years ago and this Vehicle is one of the best in the world, can you argue that, for a mostly stock build.

Ok, I'll attempt to add something constructive.

Going by your own words - One or more Pistons was installed incorrectly.
That is the foundation of the engine and should be corrected before anything else. At the same time check main and rod bearing clearances. Check the crankshaft thrust. Verify top dead center aligns with the timing marks on the balancer and cover.

After that get a quality timing set and install the cam properly - not to some random voodoo advance - To The Correct Spec. With a degree wheel and dial indicator.

Inspect the heads while they are off. I don't know if it's been covered but the 041 cam has specific valve spring requirements. I had a machine shop check the installed height and spring pressure on mine. CC the heads and find out what compression ratio the engine has. Static compression ratio is different than cranking compression.

I don't know what valve train you are running but I would check the pushrod length is correct.

Run a distributor with the proper timing curve. Don't change weights or springs randomly or with low quality parts. I would start with a constative total advance. Make sure the engine runs smoothly, Then start moving towards the upper end. I'm not sure you understand the difference between base timing, mechanical advance and vacuum advance. They need to work together.

All this in conjunction with a good carburetor and you will have resolved the problems.

Don't take this as an insult. A lot of what you are trying is backyard voodoo. Transmission fluid instead of engine oil is a PRIME example. Many companies offer engine flushes. Engine flush is used in conjunction with engine oil. Proper tool for the job. Just because the engine didn't immediately explode does not prove ATF in place of engine oil is a good idea.

If you want to reinvent the wheel through trial and error go right ahead. I respect personal liberty. I prefer the shortest distance between 2 points.

I'll say it again. This is not a attack. But I am really surprised everyone continues to offer help when you make excuses to ignore the help.