[Joe's Garage]

It's on a VERY early-built 1965 LeMans 4dr 'brass hat' we just acquired that has a TON of options.

Here's what we've 'deciphered' so far:

7C = built 3rd week of July 1964

STYLE 65-23769 = 1965 model year LeMans 4dr

TRIM 298-88 not sure yet

ACC A49 B70 C08 58 not sure on these yet

BODY BF 1 = Fremont CA Fisher body plant

Does the '1' indicate that this was the first 1965 LeMans body built there or the first 1965 Pontiac body of all models built there?

PAINT N2 A = burgundy red poly with black vinyl top (not sure what the 'A' means yet)

I'm much better at the 1968-up stuff, honestly.

Thanks, in advance, for any help.

[OG68]

298-88. Burgundy Preston Cloth with Burgundy Imitation Leather.
298 - Pontiac Trim Number, 88 - Fisher Body Trim Number

A49 - Seat Belts, Custom Retractable. Front
B70 - Pad, Instrument Panel
C08 - Cordova Top - Black
58 - ?

BF 1 First Four Door 23769 LeMans built at Fremont

From ChevelleStuff.com ;

The Fisher Body Unit Number is unique to Fisher Body meaning it has nothing to do the car's final VIN and will not match the last six digits of the car's VIN.
Unlike the VIN that increases by 1 for each car regardless of the series or body style the body number appears to be fairly sequential based on the style number. This means that any two Chevelles built one after the other would have consecutive VINs such as 101000 and 101001 but the body numbers would not be consecutive unless they were identical styles (and even then it'd be a rare occurrence due to other issues at play). Another way to explain it is for any given time of the year there is bound to be more of one particular style built than another so the more popular style (to that point in time) would have a higher body number than the lesser popular style.

N2 A - A stands for Starlight Black Wheels

[Keith Seymore]

Not much to add, except "BF 1 First Four Door 23769 LeMans built at Fremont" is pretty remarkable!

The "Group 5" system used in Pontiac Michigan (and Kansas City and other plants) has fallen by the wayside, but the UPC/RPO system shown here (ie, A49, B70, C08) is still in use today.

No idea on the "58". My references don't mention anything in that spot, but it is not an RPO code. Maybe a final line build sequence number? Let us know if you see a "58" written anywhere on the car in tire marker/chalk (ie, front end sheet metal, front of dash, etc.).

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

It's on a VERY early-built 1965 LeMans 4dr 'brass hat' we just acquired that has a TON of options.

What do you see that leads you to believe it's a "brass hat" car?

I assume it's a super low VIN? The relationship between the VIN and the body number might give us an indication of how many cars were built before they introduced this model.

K

[johnta1]

This being a Fremont plant tag, did 65 use the 6 digit number at the bottom? (1966 did I think)


Possibly the 58th vehicle on the line?

[OG68]

Originally Posted by johnta1

This being a Fremont plant tag, did 65 use the 6 digit number at the bottom? (1966 did I think)
Possibly the 58th vehicle on the line?

I think you're right.

Again, from Chevellestuff.net

Manifest Number

This 5-digit number is found on the Fremont build sheet and noted as the Manifest number. It is of no significance today unless a Fremont build sheet is found with the car. Even then it will only establish that the build sheet found matches this car.

http://chevellestuff.net/qd/tags/1965/bf/bf_decode.htm

[Joe's Garage]

The billing card is pretty fuzzy, but shows either 23-997 or 23-991.

The folks at PHS confirmed that it was a Zone office car.

Serial number is 100005. We're thinking it's a first day of 1965-model-production car.

[OG68]

Do you think this 7C 65 model, was a pre-production car?

The reason I ask is this thread from 2015 which has a photo of a 64 Trim plate with a 7E date.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=Fremont+64



And here's another '64 7E. The last one?

[johnta1]

Thanks for the reminder on the earlier thread!
John V called that number (58 for this tag) the Load Number.

[Joe's Garage]

[QUOTE=OG68;6531407]Do you think this 7C 65 model, was a pre-production car?

The reason I ask is this thread from 2015 which has a photo of a 64 Trim plate with a 7E date.



So those two 1964 models were built at Fremont TWO WEEKS after this one was. Hmmmmmm........

The 'PRE-production' thought crossed my mind, but, like I said, I'm not that versed in early stuff.

For sure it was the 1st LeMans 4dr body built at Fremont CA and, I think, the 5th Pontiac that was serialized at Fremont for the 1965 model year.

I'm going to go over it and get casting numbers and dates in the next week or so. I'm kinda curious if I will find a few leftover 1964 parts.....

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Serial number is 100005. We're thinking it's a first day of 1965-model-production car.

These early cars would have been in a separate area of the plant, in the "pilot" area. The cars would be built either in stationary stalls, or "slow built" on a small mocked up assembly line. At Flint Assembly there was a whole separate building (the GM Assembly Research Center, or GMARC - which, incidentally, is where the first 300 Corvettes were built).

They would not have gone down the line mixed in with the regular production '64 units.

The intent is that these would be observed by both engineering and assembly personnel as they were going together (or taken back apart). Once completed they could be used for photo shoots, testing, road trips, or as fodder for mule builds for future model year programs. There could be several days spent assembling, reviewing and disassembling this one vehicle. Any changes required could be made and put in place prior to the start of regular volume production.

Then, after the regular model changeover later in the summer/fall, there would have been a "first day" of production. Sometimes you start slow (especially in a virgin assembly plant), with only a vehicle or two being built, and ramp up over the course of a couple weeks to full volume production.

I would expect since the change from '64 to '65 was fairly minor Fremont would have hit the ground running, especially since the big issues (conceivably) would have already been sorted at the lead plant (Pontiac Michigan).

There is really not any way to know at this point, unless you happened to be there in person.

So, I guess - "before" first day of production for this car.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by OG68

Do you think this 7C 65 model, was a pre-production car?

A bit of semantics, there, but I would say "yes".

I would agree it was built before volume production started, but it is a "saleable" (production) unit since it has a normal VIN and was released to the general public (even though selling to the public may not have been it's original intent).

K

[OG68]

Wouldn't the Trim Plate date (7C) be the time period when the body was first assembled, not the completion date of the vehicle?

Could a possible scenario be that the body was built or mocked up in late July by Fisher Body, but complete vehicle assembly was completed on the first day of regular production in late August?

Something else I noted was the Invoice Date (09-21-4).

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by OG68

Wouldn't the Trim Plate date (7C) be the time period when the body was first assembled, not the completion date of the vehicle?

Could a possible scenario be that the body was built or mocked up in late July by Fisher Body, but complete vehicle assembly was completed on the first day of regular production in late August?

Something else I noted was the Invoice Date (09-21-4).

Yes - 7C is specific to the body build. Bodies could be built up ahead of time and stored, either in a body bank or even in the aisle (which would risk damage from forklifts or other in-plant traffic).

Most plants (Pontiac Michigan for one) had/have a body bank between the body shop and paint, and then another between paint and trim. That would allow builds to be shuffled to level workload based on option content*, color, hold for missing parts (like a unique engine), pull out for extended repair to the body and then cut back into the lineup, hold because of irreparable damage to the corresponding frame, etc.

Fremont did not have a body bank. They built straight through. If they stored a body it would have to sit in the aisle (or over where they were doing Pilot builds).

9/21/64 was the earliest date a new '65 vehicle could be sold/invoiced, I believe. Our '65 was also invoiced 9/21/64 but we picked it up a few days earlier than that. I've never seen an invoice date prior to 9/21/64.

K

*can't have too many manual trans in a row; can't have to many tripowers in a row; can't have too many A/C cars in a row, etc.

[Keith Seymore]

Inside GMARC (ie, slow build "pilot line").

K

[Keith Seymore]

By way of reference: Gunnell's "Standard Catalog of Pontiac" shows the start date for 1965 model year as 8/24/1964.

It does not specify which plant; I assume Pontiac, and I thought I read Fremont started right about that same time.

K

[OG68]

Thank you Keith. I find it all interesting and really enjoy learning the "rest of the story" as Paul Harvey used to say.

[WQ59B]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Yes - 7C is specific to the body build. Bodies could be built up ahead of time and stored, either in a body bank or even in the aisle (which would risk damage from forklifts or other in-plant traffic).

Most plants (Pontiac Michigan for one) had/have a body bank between the body shop and paint, and then another between paint and trim. That would allow...

Fremont did not have a body bank. They built straight through.

My home plant-built '64 has a 10D data plate code, and was built 10.25.63. I suppose plenty of bodies also went 'straight thru' in plants that had body banks, yes?

[Joe's Garage]

You guys are WAAAAAY smarter on this older stuff than I will ever be.

I'll post some more on LeMans #1 when I get it cleaned up a bit.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by WQ59B

My home plant-built '64 has a 10D data plate code, and was built 10.25.63. I suppose plenty of bodies also went 'straight thru' in plants that had body banks, yes?

Yes - that's the goal.

But it still takes a couple shifts to get through body shop, and a couple shifts to get through paint.

Once it drops down onto the final line it's about 8 hours from being done.

Depending on line rate, and assuming no unintended breakdowns or planned downtime.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Most plants (Pontiac Michigan for one) had/have a body bank between the body shop and paint, and then another between paint and trim. That would allow builds to be shuffled to level workload based on option content*, color, hold for missing parts (like a unique engine), pull out for extended repair to the body and then cut back into the lineup, hold because of irreparable damage to the corresponding frame, etc.

Sorry - one more reason for a body bank - and it's probably the biggest one:

It also serves as an accumulator, so in the event of a breakdown in body shop or in paint you can draw from the accumulator to keep the final line running.

Management does not want to see that final line stopped.

Even if we were scheduled for 8 hours of production we would often go over a little bit to fill all the accumulators back up for the start of the next shift.

K