[jhein]

My Pypes downpipes seal really well against the manifolds. I don't know exactly which manifolds I have. They are larger ID than stock, but not as large as RARE. They do not appear to have been worked on. The inner surface looks untouched.

[mgarblik]

I have a little Data and a few pics I can post here. I have some video as well, but a friend will help me edit them small enough and get them on in the next couple days. Hopefully, you can read the data. Basically, this is from the best pull. Couple things to explain. First, I did remove the air hat on the last 3 pulls. Quadrajets just hate those air hats attached above them. They are a small restriction, but the larger problem is the impeller rotating in the hat measuring air movement, disrupts the air valve/flap on a Q-jet. I have seen this happen many times with Q-jets and Thermoquads. AFB's don't seem to care possibly because the air flap is lower and is weighted. So with the hat off, Air/fuel ratio, volumetric efficiency, and air usage will not show up. On earlier runs, with the hat installed, the engine was using a maximum amount of air about 603-605 CFM. The volumetric efficiency was 96.8 @ around 3000-3200 RPM and over 90% from 3000-5100 RPM's. This engine liked to run pretty darn rich. It made the best power and was happiest in the 12.5-12.7 to 1 range. To get that at the top RPM's, it was in the 11.5-11.7 range from 3000-4100 range. More time tuning could have cleaned that up a bit. Oil pressure was high and steady. I am aware many in the forum just hate to see high oil pressure, but that's just my thing I guess. I love my 80 lb. oil pumps. I guess seeing so many bearings destroyed by low oil pressure has jaded me. I have never seen a bearing damaged by too high oil pressure!

[sdbob]

Thanks Mike really enjoy the info. I've never had excessive oil pressure problems in 50 yrs. The race car has the SD pump but with RAIV spring. John Herslow told me yrs ago the SD wants fuel.

[mgarblik]

I wanted to add a little cautionary tale I discovered that would apply to all Pontiac V-8 engines. Just something to keep in mind. My SD dipstick says "5 Quarts, Do not Overfill". I know there have been numerous posts in other threads about proper oil level in our engines. So I started with 5 quarts of break-in oil and a full size filter. I ran the drill motor and the priming rod to prime the engine. This was on a dry engine first fill. Oil filter empty. Ran the drill at approx 400 RPM. It took about 10 seconds to show some oil pressure on the external gauge attached to the filter housing. I let the pressure drop to zero and then ran the drill again. After 25-30 seconds with the pressure showing 70-74 PSI , the drill motor changed sound and the pressure dropped rapidly to 15-20 PSI!!. I did this test 4 times. Each time the pressure would go to 70-74 PSI and then by 30 seconds later the pressure would be low. I let the oil settle and checked the dipstick. It was showing 1.5 quarts low on the stick. I added 1 quart and re-tested. I ran the oil pump for over 2 minutes several times and pressure was rock steady. Let the oil settle and checked the level. It showed 1/2 quart low. I added 1/2 quart to full line. So a completely dry engine needed 6.5 quarts to full. On my oil change to remove the break-in oil, with a new filter, it took 6 quarts to the full line.

Here are my conclusions: 1/2 quart of oil stays in the engine on a typical oil change. 6 quarts is the proper fill with a full size oil filter. If the dipstick says 1.5 quarts low, you are in the extreme DANGER zone. 1 quart low and running hard, braking hard, cornering hard, you may be in danger. Aftermarket heads and blocks with restricted oil returns compared to stock parts would be in danger sooner. Remember these tests were performed with the engine sitting still. Keep your oil near the full line to 1/2 quart low to be safe.

[Held for Ransom]

From a 1974 Ventura Owners Operating Manual...

[Skip Fix]

Mike I found about the same thing slowly adding oil on the last one I pre oiled with the valley pan off. Took almost 2 qts to fill all the passages, lifters etc I like to see if there are an issues and the hole by the distributor gear is working,

[sdbob]

I always used 6 qts in all my engines. However forever I pre filled filter some say dont. I always did ,sooooo.... still learning,now where I did I leave my head?

[Dragncar]

If I have a filter location that is not sideways or a canister style, I always fill it. Don't care what anyone says. My engine getting oil a split second faster than with a empty filter is worth it.

[mgarblik]

I normally pre-fill the filters as well. Just habit. I didn't on the first fill because I was going to prime it anyway. Don't know if it makes any difference or not. Most modern cars have canister style filters on the very top of the engine. So no way to pre-fill them. I was surprised the pan was pumped mostly dry with a 5 quart fill.

[jhein]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

I wanted to add a little cautionary tale I discovered that would apply to all Pontiac V-8 engines. Just something to keep in mind. My SD dipstick says "5 Quarts, Do not Overfill". I know there have been numerous posts in other threads about proper oil level in our engines. So I started with 5 quarts of break-in oil and a full size filter. I ran the drill motor and the priming rod to prime the engine. This was on a dry engine first fill. Oil filter empty. Ran the drill at approx 400 RPM. It took about 10 seconds to show some oil pressure on the external gauge attached to the filter housing. I let the pressure drop to zero and then ran the drill again. After 25-30 seconds with the pressure showing 70-74 PSI , the drill motor changed sound and the pressure dropped rapidly to 15-20 PSI!!. I did this test 4 times. Each time the pressure would go to 70-74 PSI and then by 30 seconds later the pressure would be low. I let the oil settle and checked the dipstick. It was showing 1.5 quarts low on the stick. I added 1 quart and re-tested. I ran the oil pump for over 2 minutes several times and pressure was rock steady. Let the oil settle and checked the level. It showed 1/2 quart low. I added 1/2 quart to full line. So a completely dry engine needed 6.5 quarts to full. On my oil change to remove the break-in oil, with a new filter, it took 6 quarts to the full line.

Here are my conclusions: 1/2 quart of oil stays in the engine on a typical oil change. 6 quarts is the proper fill with a full size oil filter. If the dipstick says 1.5 quarts low, you are in the extreme DANGER zone. 1 quart low and running hard, braking hard, cornering hard, you may be in danger. Aftermarket heads and blocks with restricted oil returns compared to stock parts would be in danger sooner. Remember these tests were performed with the engine sitting still. Keep your oil near the full line to 1/2 quart low to be safe.

Thank you for that post. That's excellent information.

I had a thread recently about this general question but it was mainly related to aftermarket parts, heads, blocks etc.

So as far as the drain back issues related to aftermarket heads and blocks, doesn't that really not matter?

So what if the heads and the lifter valley hold a bunch of oil? Once you reach the oil retention threshold in those cavities and keep the crankcase full, what does it matter?

[steve25]

I gotta say I am near being shocked at how rich that combo needed to be!

I am also very curious as to how what's detailed in port 264 would effect a Cam break in session.
Any thoughts everybody?

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by steve25

I gotta say I am near being shocked at how rich that combo needed to be!

I am also very curious as to how what's detailed in port 264 would effect a Cam break in session.
Any thoughts everybody?

Steve, I would say the combination is NOT fully optimized in it's current best pull on the engine dyno. It can be improved with more time and effort tuning it. However, it seemed to run and sound good so I was happy with it. We made numerous changes to the secondary jetting to lean it out each pull on the dyno. It was extremely rich with the stock metering rods and hanger. We are talking 10.5-11:1 AFR. It was also down about 35 HP from where we ended up. I kept changing the metering rods in .005" increments leaner and it kept getting better until it didn't at about a .055" tip. Then we played with the timing. IMO, tuning with BSFC, air flow and fuel consumption is not as accurate as using a wide band O2. Once installed in the car, we may put it on the chassis dyno and tune it a little more with wide band O2's. That would be 8-10 months from now. As it is now, I am fine with the "fat and happy" tune it has on it. No doubt, there is 10-15 more HP hiding in there. BTW, spring seat pressure was 125-130 PSI before break-in.

Concerning cam break in, I ran both springs on the valves from the start. It was an NOS cam with GM NOS lifters. I did use BB Chevy studs and clinch nuts. Set lash at 0+ 1/2 turn. Cam coated with "Can Shield", a molly based paste Joe Mondello liked. Used Amsoil break-in oil, straight 30 wt. One of my students is an Amsoil dealer. My engine was never run with the oil level low. Only run low with a priming rod for information purposes. Second drain and fill is Valvoline VR1, 10W-30. That's the oil pressure you see on the dyno sheets.

[steve25]

You did the right thing by starting the pulls way on the rich side , thumbs up!

[sdbob]

Thank you guys for reaffirming I'm not doing anything bad filling oil filter. As I said John Herslow running SD said it wants fuel. He said in a race thrash they left out 2nd rods in qjet, terrible stumble but best mph they ever ran.

[Elarson]

Originally Posted by jhein

Thank you for that post. That's excellent information.

I had a thread recently about this general question but it was mainly related to aftermarket parts, heads, blocks etc.

So as far as the drain back issues related to aftermarket heads and blocks, doesn't that really not matter?

So what if the heads and the lifter valley hold a bunch of oil? Once you reach the oil retention threshold in those cavities and keep the crankcase full, what does it matter?

It matters on determining the correct fill on a fresh dry engine vs. an oil change on a previously run engine (that has already established equilibrium on the "hidden oil").

Eric

[jhein]

Originally Posted by Elarson

It matters on determining the correct fill on a fresh dry engine vs. an oil change on a previously run engine (that has already established equilibrium on the "hidden oil").

Eric

Yes, I agree completely with that. But once have your fill amount figured out, it shouldn't really matter as far as getting oil back to the crankcase.

[mgarblik]

I have a link that has some dyno highlights and some photos from the session. I will list it here.

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...1CS3RreXUxZEZ3

[mgarblik]

Finally, an update on this project! I know it's been a long time since I updated this thread. I have been working on the car whenever I have a small block of time to do so. It is taking much, much longer to get it back together and in running condition than expected. Other than time constraints, low quality replacement parts have been a major time consuming issue putting the car back together. I have been blessed to have received this car with a treasure trove of NOS parts with the car. Most of these parts were purchased in the late 1970's when still available from the dealer and as expected, all of them install and function perfectly. The aftermarket stuff has been another story. Almost without exception, every part has some type of flaw or issue that renders it completely non-usable or requires extensive modification to make it look correct or function.
I will admit up front that I loath doing interior and trim work. But it's a necessary part of the project of course.

First major snag that slowed things down was the attempted installation of new carpet. The purchased carpet was so poorly molded that is just looked terrible. Spent over 30 hours trying to work it out and get a decent fit in the footwells and around the transmission hump. Bought additional Jute backing to try and "crutch" it together to look proper and fit nicely. Had an interior expert come over and work with it for several hours as well. Finally decided it was a no-go. Took it all back out, cut it up and threw it away. Ordered a second set direct from ACC. It was much better quality than the first set, with tighter loop and more dense backing. Also a slightly less intense shade of black. (different vendor of dye lot?). Anyway, it did install much better and looks good after about 20 hours of additional fitting. I give it an honest 8 out of 10.
The next major snag was the headliner. Like many people, I purchased a complete, ready made headliner, perforated vinyl, foam backed glued to plastic backing. Let it lay out for many months after unrolling it from small box it was shipped in. I had 2 people helping me with a combined over 100 years of experience. After 5 hours trying to make it fit and contour properly to the roof interior, we finally had to give up. We had the front half fitting pretty darn good but the rear section would not fit the contour of the roof no matter what you did with it. We tried everything. In a best case scenario, the headliner would still droop in one area or 2, bad enough that I could not except the results. We removed it and ended up cutting it in pieces for the garbage man to take away.
Fortunately, I kept the original fiberboard backing and will attempt to cover it and install in the next few weeks.
So between the carpet and headliner I have thrown about $600.00 in the trash. Not the end of the world, but not great either. Learning experience fee, I guess.

After spending some time at the Trans Am Nationals looking at every 2nd generation TA I could, I am not the only one with headliner installation issues. That made me feel a little better about my failures. I fully understand why the reproduction pieces are made the way they are. They can roll them up and ship then in a small box or a tube. If they were made full size and properly molded, it would probably cost $400-500 to ship them in a giant box and even then probably be damaged. So I get it. Once the recovered headliner is finally installed I can move under the hood and get the engine back in the chassis.

Still hoping to have it running before the snow flies this fall/winter. Will post some pics soon of where the progress is now and in the near future. Appreciate the help and advice from members on this forum. I am mostly a mechanical guy so help with trim/interior has been very useful. Trying to do this car as correctly as possible.

I do have the entire braking system installed and verified no leaks and working. The combination valve was particularly difficult to rebuild. Most of the seals are not available and one tiny interior spring was rusted in 3 pieces. I was able to work with Lee spring and come up with a replacement. same wire diameter, length and hopefully spring rate. The aftermarket replacement combo valves are brass and don't look anything similar to the original. I assume they would function in a pinch I guess. I have the NOS package shelf installed, rear speaker, original rear seat and upholstery installed. Also dash and wiring. So some work is being accomplished. Stay tuned.

[HWYSTR455]

Yeah I too have struggled with the carpets, in all my cars. For my bird, I prefer no console, it's a manual, and finding a carpet that fits well is a challenge.

Same with headliner, I prefer the one-piece ones, and had modded a later year cardboard one prior, which worked 'ok' to 'good'. I bought one of the ABS ones, and didn't remove it from the box upon arrival, and no way was that thing going to ever work.

So, had to buy another one. Am at the point where I'm about to install it, will comment on my experience.

So in the rear you say it was drooping? Like where the roof transitions into the sail panel areas?



.

[PAUL K]

Thanks for the update


If it was easy everyone would be doing it!

Glad you're making progress