[HWYSTR455]

I soaked the Morels for the OLDS before installing, even tho the docs said not to.

I soaked the Crower HIPPO solid rollers too, it also said not to.

Spotts soaked the CC extreme HRs for my 463, they too stated not to soak I believe.

I soak in engine oil after.

I refuse to install anything without cleaning, learned my lesson long ago.

I'd still be interested to know if there are any witness marks on the valley pan.



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[Formulajones]

I always soak the rollers in break in oil before I use them. Don't care if a paper says not to. I'm not installing them dry. Never been an issue.

[steve25]

I would love to know these manufacturers misplaced logic as to why not to soak them?

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by steve25

I would love to know these manufacturers misplaced logic as to why not to soak them?

I have no evidence to back this up, but it's my theory that it's a hedge against improper installation.

although I don't necessarily know how this would happen, my theory is that soaking the lifters may have the ability to pump them up, and or dislodge garbage that may otherwise be carried away in the pressurized oil stream after installation.

*IF the lifter gets pumped up, it would be easier to install these things and not have them adjusted properly. That itself can lead to noisy valvetrain and may beat the lifter up so much that it damages it and then the engine.

Again, absolute theory on my end with no evidence to back that up, but if you're having two separate problems and can only solve one of them, you might choose the one that is causing the most amount of issues.

My understanding on this goop issue is that the protectants being used are water based as mandated by the EPA. As a result it can create sludge when the engine oil is introduced to it.

So, what are the solutions? You ship the product without protectant. That can cause it's own issues if the product sits on a shelf (especially in a humid climate) for any real length of time.

So how do you solve that? You build to suite at the time of purchase. The problem there is you now don't get to take advantage of economy of scale. You also can't deliver as quickly. It's 2025, everyone expects these parts here tomorrow. Prices go up as a result, and if the purchaser doesn't protect the product themselves, you still end up with a potentially corroded part.

The real solution is being able to use a proper oil based protectant for the part that will inhibit corrosion and not gum up when engine oil is introduced. That likely takes a literal act of congress at this point though.

[rolling money pits]

Originally Posted by steve25

I would love to know these manufacturers misplaced logic as to why not to soak them?

Cannot speak for other manufacturers, but I posed a question in the comp evo lifter thread, specific to their instructions. No reply as of yet.

They, Comp, specifically state TO clean the lifters, soaking/cleaning in toluene or some such solution BUT, they also specifically state to NOT wash out the break in lube for the needle bearings put in by the factory.

This is obviously for roller lifters, what’s being instructed for FT lifters these days I’m clueless to.

[Tim Corcoran]

I believe the reason the manufacturer recommends installing them dry is it's easier to adjust the lash if the lifter is not pumped up. Upon start up the lifter will fill with oil pretty quick and won't damage anything running a few seconds with no oil. There may be other reasons too but I trust that the manufacturer knows best in this area. In the future I will disassemble the lifters and clean then install them lubricated with WD-40 but not adding oil.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by steve25

I would love to know these manufacturers misplaced logic as to why not to soak them?

It comes on the same literature that also tells you to set preload at so many turns, yet they have no idea what rocker ratio or what the thread pitch on your stud is. All of which affects the preload lol

What the literature should be saying is set preload to .050" or what ever spec they prefer, and it's everyone's responsibility to get out the dial indicator and check it.

[grandam1979]

If your worried about pump up you could just do your lifter adjustment then prime the engine before putting distributor in. I have always soaked mine but I think priming would work also.

[steve25]

I agree with you and it makes me wonder what they say to do with motors that use shaft mounted rockers because that leaves you with no choice but to measure .

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by grandam1979

If your worried about pump up you could just do your lifter adjustment then prime the engine before putting distributor in. I have always soaked mine but I think priming would work also.

I do all of the above.

I soak mine before install, it's never affected adjustment. I get the lobe on the base circle, adjust polylock until all slack is taken up without moving the plunger, set up my dial indicator, set the preload to desired measurement...........done.

I always prime the engines with intake and valve covers off, making sure oil circulates properly. And I'll do it again before fire up if it sits for any length of time.

If you're worried about pump up, put a dry lifter in first, take your preload measurement with your dial indicator so you know how many turns it's going to take. Then soak all the lifters, install and simply set preload via pre determined turns that you measured with the dry lifter. Simple.

[HWYSTR455]

I believe the reason they say not to soak them is due to the rollers on the tip, which could cause a startup failure IF there is no lube there. Drain back if engine sits for a while between assembly and startup could be an issue.

That's what Crower tech told me. I basically told him I will take that chance, it's not going in without a cleaning.


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[Nobuddy]

I recall the Pontiac factory service manuals from the good old days had instructions on how to disassemble, clean, reassemble and test hydraulic lifters. Someone thought it was a good idea then. Seems a minor amount of work if you have the lifters in your hand. Then you know they are clean. I'm flat tappet guy but would probably inject some assembly lube in the wheels.

[Tim Corcoran]

This will be very expensive to put this motor back together. It appears the failure was due to the axle pin coming out of the roller on two lifters and was almost out on a third lifter. One of the axle pins hit the piston hard enough to make it unusable. Two cam lobes damaged and with all the metal going through the engine from the needle bearings the crank will need to be turned .010 and new bearings plus new lifters new cam, gaskets etc... The piston is not an off the shelf piston so I will need to have one custom piston made.

[65 Lamnas]

Originally Posted by Tim Corcoran

This will be very expensive to put this motor back together. It appears the failure was due to the axle pin coming out of the roller on two lifters and was almost out on a third lifter. One of the axle pins hit the piston hard enough to make it unusable. Two cam lobes damaged and with all the metal going through the engine from the needle bearings the crank will need to be turned .010 and new bearings plus new lifters new cam, gaskets etc... The piston is not an off the shelf piston so I will need to have one custom piston made.

Yikes!! Thanks for the update on root cause, Tim. It has to be a sickening feeling looking at all the carnage and seeing the $$$ as well as all the time involved. Would assume the guys at Johnson are still evaluating/investigating?

I'm not looking at a lifter right now, but how are the axle pins retained? Are they staked or swaged or interference fit to the body? Curious...but it would seem the axle pin "retention process" was missed, skipped, or otherwise not to spec. If I were at Johnson, I'd want to be getting all 8 sets back.

[chuckies76ta]

Tim. Are these the Johnson Short Travel Lifters? Sorry to see this happen to you.

[HWYSTR455]

I may be wrong, but think pins usually don't walk out without the lifters being hammered.

Yeah this does suck, sorry to see this bud.


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[Tim Corcoran]

I should add that these lifters are not from current production. There were purchased around 10 years ago and sat on the shelf and just recently installed.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Tim Corcoran

This will be very expensive to put this motor back together. It appears the failure was due to the axle pin coming out of the roller on two lifters and was almost out on a third lifter. One of the axle pins hit the piston hard enough to make it unusable. Two cam lobes damaged and with all the metal going through the engine from the needle bearings the crank will need to be turned .010 and new bearings plus new lifters new cam, gaskets etc... The piston is not an off the shelf piston so I will need to have one custom piston made.

Sorry to hear this Tim. I have a handful of misc Butler/Ross pistons. Let me know the bore and rod/stroke. If I have one that fits it's yours.... At least I think that's a Butler piston in the picture

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Tim Corcoran

I should add that these lifters are not from current production. There were purchased around 10 years ago and sat on the shelf and just recently installed.

That shouldn't matter

[grivera]

Tim - can you advise the valve spring pressure open and closed, assuming you have that?