[Heybuck]

I've just been having a back & forth banter with a very long term good mate about what cars had 421 badges and where they are located.

We are specifically talking about 1965 & 1966 big cars. My mate owns a 1966 Grand Prix which originally (apparently) was a 421 car. (It now has a 1967 400ci engine).

I own an original 1966 Grand Prix which always was and still is a 389 auto car. I also own a 1965 Bonneville 4DRHT which is a PHS documented 421 HO Tri-power car. (How many 4 door hardtop cars had a 421HO tri-power from new??).

So between the 1965 and 1966 cars, which car models had 421 badges? To the best of my belief, in 1965 only Catalina 2+2 had a 421 badge on the front fenders but did NOT have a 421 badge on the radiator shroud.

My own Bonneville has the original fenders and there are no holes in them where a 421 badge was originally fitted.

My mate says a 1966 Grand Prix which originally had a 421 should have a 421 badge on the lower part of the front fenders. I think he might be correct on that? And only 1966 cars with a 421 had the underhood badge. Correct?

I also think that NO 1965 models had a 421 badge under the hood? Correct?

Can anyone give us a definitive answer as to what is correct?

Thanks, Ian

[Redpiston]

66 2+2 has 4 421 badges. Each front fender. On radiator shroud, and on console.

[johnta1]

I also own a 1965 Bonneville 4DRHT which is a PHS documented 421 HO Tri-power car. (How many 4 door hardtop cars had a 421HO tri-power from new??).

Automatic or manual?

[Heybuck]

It’s an Automatic. Bonneville Brougham.
It came to Australia brand new and was converted to RHD before it could be sold new.
I think it has every factory option except A/C. I can understand why as the steering column goes right through where the A/C unit would normally be fitted. Oh, it didn’t have 8 lug wheels either.
Sadly it’s in very poor condition, a lot of surface rust although very little structural rust. It was pulled apart maybe 30 years ago, the paint was stripped off and then left in an open ended shed where it had dogs living in it.
I bought it about 25 years ago, put it in a dry and secure garage and it hasn’t had anything done since. I guess I’ll have to sell it as-is one day but it will make a great project for someone

[johnta1]

Here's a snip of the engine production totals for 65:




Not sure what your engine ID is, but I think it would be relatively rare?
I didn't look up how many Bonneville Brougham's were made, but also pretty rare in itself?

My Dad had a 65 Bonneville when I was younger.
(don't think it was a Brougham though or 421)

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Heybuck

I've just been having a back & forth banter with a very long term good mate about what cars had 421 badges and where they are located.

We are specifically talking about 1965 & 1966 big cars. My mate owns a 1966 Grand Prix which originally (apparently) was a 421 car. (It now has a 1967 400ci engine).

I own an original 1966 Grand Prix which always was and still is a 389 auto car. I also own a 1965 Bonneville 4DRHT which is a PHS documented 421 HO Tri-power car. (How many 4 door hardtop cars had a 421HO tri-power from new??).

I do not think this information is available. Probably less than 50, but that is just my opinion.

So between the 1965 and 1966 cars, which car models had 421 badges? To the best of my belief, in 1965 only Catalina 2+2 had a 421 badge on the front fenders but did NOT have a 421 badge on the radiator shroud.

All 1965 421 cars had the 421 badge on the front fender.

All 1966 421 cars had the 421 badge on the lower fender, except the 2+2, which has it on the center of the front fender.

No 1965 Pontiac had the 421 badge on the fan guard. But many have added them.

My own Bonneville has the original fenders and there are no holes in them where a 421 badge was originally fitted.

My mate says a 1966 Grand Prix which originally had a 421 should have a 421 badge on the lower part of the front fenders. I think he might be correct on that? And only 1966 cars with a 421 had the underhood badge. Correct?

Yes.

I also think that NO 1965 models had a 421 badge under the hood? Correct?

Yes,

Can anyone give us a definitive answer as to what is correct?

Thanks, Ian

Ian, do you agree?

[muscle_collector]

ive owned numerous 65 421 cars over the years and several of them had the 421 emblem on the radiator support.

[Heybuck]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Here's a snip of the engine production totals for 65:




Not sure what your engine ID is, but I think it would be relatively rare?
I didn't look up how many Bonneville Brougham's were made, but also pretty rare in itself?

My engine code is YK..

So to tell the complete story, I bought this car simply because it was a RHD conversion. I only wanted the dash out of it and my original intent was to pull the dash, use the dash in my 1965 Parisienne Convertible and scrap the rest of the Bonneville.

Since starting this topic, I have thought back and realise I bought the Bonneville back in 1997, so 28 years ago. (How time flies!!!!). So back then, it was a 32 year old car, it was stinking dirty (dogs living in it), it was unassembled, it had NO ENGINE and it had no paint and lots of surface rust.

I had the car brought to my house and I pulled the seats out which despite dogs living in the car, the seats were in surprisingly good condition. But FILTHY dirty. And the front bench seat was 6 way electric so I thought I'd easily sell the interior once I'd scrubbed it all clean. The weather was hot hot hot at the time so I started the scrub down on the back lawn with a garden hose to rinse it all off.

That's when I found the build sheet tucked up under the lip of the rear seat. I saw "YK" as the engine code and I could hardly believe my eyes. I approached the seller and asked about the engine. He knew what he had and wanted a fair load of cash for it. I agreed but when I saw the engine, pulled apart, some parts missing, no long branch manifolds, wrong heads, etc, I said no.

Fast forward a few months and a mate told me he had seen the engine listed for sale but in a totally different location to where the seller of my car was. And a totally different phone number. So I called the new phone number and it turned out this new seller was selling an engine out of a 1965 Bonneville Convertible. All he had listed was "421 Big Block" and his phone number. I went to see him and the engine was still in the Convertible and was so covered in oil and dirt you couldn't see the engine code. So agreed to buy everything he was selling. I bought the engine, transmission, rear end, 8 lug wheels, wood rim steering wheel and a few front end parts. When I went back to collect all my stuff, I took a brush to the engine code and again, could not believe my eyes, it said YK!!!

This seller was chopping up the nicest convertible you can imagine. He was fitting a 454 Supercharged Chev engine, 9" Ford rear, he had the car tubbed to fit huge wheels. Well good luck to him, bad luck for the convertible but I think I was the winner. The engine in the convertible had an Edelbrock manifold and I think an 850cfm Holley carb - so no tri-power included.

In the interim, I had applied for the PHS on my Bonneville and they verified it was an original 421 HO Tri-power car and even said the car was marked as Export.

Fast forward a bit more and I had a tree cutter come to lop some trees at my house. Nice guy, I've used him for over 40 years. He had a look at my Bonneville and I was staggered when he told me his old boss (Frank)used to have a big blue Pontiac years earlier. One thing led to another and I rang his old boss who remembered the car, it was only a few years old when he bought it. About 3 or 4y/o and he sold it a few years later. So he only owned it for 3 or 4 years himself.

Now the best bit.......... Frank told me he had no end of trouble with the car, they had constant trouble getting it to run right so they took the intake off and put a regular Pontiac manifold and carburettor on the car and from then on it was OK to drive. He told me "I've still got all those old parts we took off it out in the shed, you can have them if you want them". I went over, amazingly he lived only a few streets from where my parents had moved to, and he gave me the original tri-power manifold and a box of carburettors..

So to end all this, by then I'd bought my 1966 Grand Prix, the Bonneville was in the way at home so I transported it down to a mates farm 70 miles away, put it in a dry steel garage, covered it up and there it lies to this day. Always wanted to restore it but my business was taking up huge amounts of time, money was always tight (still is...), family, paying off a house etc etc etc.

FINALLY now got started on my Parisienne, I'm not using the Bonneville dash and once the Parisienne is done and I'm properly retired, maybe I can live the Bonneville Dream. But I'm 75, still working but I'm tired so who knows what might happen to the Bonneville in the long term,

Cheers all

Ian

[Heybuck]

Originally Posted by stevep

Ian, do you agree?

Well, I don't know Steve?

I'm still of the thought that ONLY 1965 Catalina's with the 2+2 option had 421 badges on the front fenders and NO badge under the hood.

But I'd like to be corrected once and for all.

I'm well aware that many 1965 cars may well have later had 421 badges on the fenders and also under the hood, but are they ORIGINAL???? I don't know.

Ian

[TXSTARFIRE]

For another data point this is what my 7-73 MPC shows.

Grp 10.240 9781470 421 Console emblem 65-66 52,54 (Catalina sport option)
52 is Catalina
54 is 66 2+2
This emblem appears to have only been used on 65 and 66 2 plus 2s.

Grp 1.303 9781470 421 Radiator Fan Guard Panel Emblem 66 P/8 421
This is the same emblem as used on the console for 2 plus 2 but appears to have been used on all 66 full size with 421 engine.

Grp 8.147 9780808-9 421 Fender emblem 65 52,56
52 is Catalina
56 is Star Chief
This emblem appears to have been used on all Catalinas and Star Chiefs with 421 engine. I dont see a listing for other B body cars.

Grp 8.147 9784725-6 421 Fender emblem 66 all B body exc 2 + 2
It looks like all B bodies with a 421 got fender emblems.

Grp 8.147 9784727-8 421 Fender emblem 66 2+2
Specific fender emblem for 66 2+2.

That is the way I would interpret what the MPC shows.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Heybuck

Well, I don't know Steve?

I'm still of the thought that ONLY 1965 Catalina's with the 2+2 option had 421 badges on the front fenders and NO badge under the hood.

But I'd like to be corrected once and for all.

I'm well aware that many 1965 cars may well have later had 421 badges on the fenders and also under the hood, but are they ORIGINAL???? I don't know.

Ian

The 421 under hood emblem came out in 1966.

[mgarblik]

I have owned 2 421 HO 66 cars. My 66 2+2 convertible had all original sheet metal. It was a 4-speed. 421 emblem on the console, radiator upper pan and the front fenders. My 421 HO 9 passenger Catalina wagon had 3 421 badges. One on each lower front fender in front of the door and 1 on the radiator upper pan It also had all original sheet metal and was a 1 owner trade in car when I bought it.
As some know, a 421 HO was not supposed to have been available in a 66 wagon, but that's what it was. I ran as many numbers down as I could back in the day, pre-PHS.

[stevep]

One thing that I have discovered it "back then, NOTHING was written in stone"!

If you had a dealer with some pull and he had a good Zone Rep, stuff would get built that people said couldn't be built.

[lust4speed]

I'll stick with just 1965 421 cars. Every 421 Bonneville I've seen had the 421 badges low on the fender, but '65 Catalina's have always had them on the front of the fender whether a 2+2 or Catalina. My 1965 2+2 had the console emblem but nothing under the hood.