[87PonchoGTA]

Hello Group,
New to the forum and getting used to the workings. I did use the search function, but didn't have any luck. I imagine I goofed a setting so apologies in advance.
Ive come across a good looking CTF 200-4R core for $50. Its an 87 model from a caprice from what ive found. I'd do a shift kit upgrade as well as a governor upgrade, should I pull the trigger. I believe they have the 10 vane from factory, correct? and hardend sun gear?My intention would be to just do a simple rebuild with the shift and gov upgrades to resell. My neighbor is a retired gm transmission specialist and would help me with the rebuild.
Just looking to see if those trans are worth it. Ive read the units that were behind v6's, diesels, and even some v8 (like og tag) are not really a good choice for quick easy flips. its not the cz, br, ect. valve body. But again its not meant to be a high hp unit.
Appreciate the thoughts and feedback.
Jh

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by 87PonchoGTA

My neighbor is a retired gm transmission specialist and would help me with the rebuild.

That's the only bright side I see to a 200-4R.

[87PonchoGTA]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

That's the only bright side I see to a 200-4R.

The topic has been debated for quite a while, no doubt. Like everything it seems now, you can find as many people that love them, and as many people say hate them.
But it depends on the application. Someone pushing 450-500 plus hp and racing heavily, probably won't end as a fan. Someone with a 300hp cruiser and have the th350's wishing for o/d, but want to butcher their transmission tunnel and jack with a bunch of mods, or spend 5k on a gear vendor seem to be the biggest supporters of the 200-4r.

[Formulas]

A 200 trans would be kind of cool in a 326 / 350 / OHC-6 cube cars, Should actually increase driving experience in those settings with more driveshaft torque in lower gears and then overdrive without much worry of breaking the trans with the usual low key upgrades

[fairwayhit]

In my long term plan I had been preparing to swap the th350 for a 200-4r. I got a core from a junkyard 20 years ago.

But every time I look into it, it seems like it is $3k to get all the billet parts, tvs bracket, special tools to rebuild it etc. then if you mess something up ( like the cable adjustment). they die a quick death.

Seems like a gamble. And maybe a money pit. So I’ve stuck with the th350



Of course you could slap it behind a 350 and rig up the throttle cable and Torque converter lock up. Maybe it will live a while, and still be a core after it dies. But fluid isn’t free and that’s a lot of work to end up stuck on the side of the road.

However, I’m pretty sure it’s worth more than $50 as a core to the right person.


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[b-man]

A transmission rebuilt in someone’s garage is gonna be a hard sell no matter how nice a job you do on it with the help of your friend who’s a transmission guy.

I wouldn’t waste my time, sell it as a core transmission.

Seriously who’s gonna pay good money for it, enough to make it worth your while?

It’s hard enough to sell a newly built one that comes with a receipt from a reputable transmission shop.

[Gary H]

We use them quite a bit in customer's cars. Our experience has been that they do well behind 400 or so HP or lower applications. For larger, higher horsepower combinations, we haven't had much success. Despite putting really good internal parts in them, they just didn't hold up long term. In those applications, we've gone with 4L80E's.

[Goatracer1]

My car has a dynoed 586hp. It weighs about 3750 lbs with me in it. It ran a best of 10.85 @ 126mph. I have had a Bow Tie Overdrives 200-4R with a lock up converter in it since 2001. You decide.

[Steve C.]

My 200-4R with my 505 engine went into service in July 2007. A year later we changed to a non lock up converter with it.
The engine at the time made 642 hp at 5900/6000 rpm. In a later configuration it made 659-662 hp at 6000 rpm and 640 ft. lbs. torque at 4700/4800 rpm.
After a conversion to direct port fuel injection and a cam change with less intensity it's now a 625-630 HP engine. The best number was 635 HP.
Peak torque at 4400/4500 rpm and peak power at 5700/5800 rpm.

The same transmission is in the car today. This post does not represent any endorsement and is offered for general interest only. It was NOT a cheap transmission to build !

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[GOAT8U2]

Fits without tunnel work is nice. Also cable isn't a big deal vs electronic control 4L80e.

While the 200-4r doesn't get much love anymore it's still got some nice benefits, it's also got enough aftermarket parts to keep it alive under most our NA power levels. Yes it's not a 4L80e but most of us from 400-600hp and torque the 200 is great, 4th gear, maybe a billet forward drum and the 4130 steels etc but not until you push it harder would you go billet input shaft.

Also most of us are not drag racing it regularly and just want to cruise with a 4th and the occasional hammer.
I'd have swapped already but I'm still deep in custom resto world it's at least a year away. I'll probably use my GN 200-4r and go 4Ll80e in the GN later when it's 1000tq.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by GOAT8U2

Fits without tunnel work is nice.

It would be nice if the tunnel mod fallacy would quit being perpetuated as a drawback to swapping the 4L80E into RWD muscle cars.

This quote comes from Jakes Performance FAQ about installing them into earlier A,X, and F bodies. Jake has likely laid hands on far more conversions than anyone in the aftermarket, I would take his word for fitment over most any other source.

The biggest fitment issue we see is in the cooler line area. Part of the issue is that the cooler lines on a 4L80E are not angled but come straight out of the case. In some cars the early cores (91-96) fit better than the 97-up cores due to the cooler line placement. We know from various installs that the 4L80E fits fairly easily in the 67-69 GM F-Body cars (Camaros Firebirds, and typically X-body Nova’s), 70-81 F-Body. 98-02 F-Body. 68-72 A-Body (Chevelles, Cutlass, GTO, etc), as well as the 78-87 G-Body cars (Malibu, Regal, Cutlass). We have customers who have installed them in 64-67 Chevelles with minor floorpan work.

Member here "Halfinchstud" has documented a complete write up on installing a 4L80R in his 68 GTO, he notes that there was no tunnel mods required. Anyone that reads this should be aware of the actual floorpan mods are either non existant, or a slight dent to gain clearance on 64-67 A bodies for cooler line clearance. The internet alludes that there is major sheet metal interference which should be a deal breaker for someone considering a conversion, which is 99% non existant.

Just trying to keep facts straight for prospective swaps in the future.

[Cammer-6]

Originally Posted by Formulas

A 200 trans would be kind of cool in a 326 / 350 / OHC-6 cube cars, Should actually increase driving experience in those settings with more driveshaft torque in lower gears and then overdrive without much worry of breaking the trans with the usual low key upgrades

I did the ST300 air cooled trans to a 200-4r in my 67 Tempest Sprint
The trans came out of an 87 SS so it has dual bolt pattern.I did a few upgrades to it and its flawless.

[GOAT8U2]

Agree, the tunnel mod shouldn't be a factor in swapping.

As far as I know, 100% of 200-4r fit without tunnel mods, that's hard to beat.

Even if most people said the 4L80e fit a 1968-69 GTO without tunnel work, some said they needed it, then you claim the statement is a fallacy when admitting 1964-67 had to massage it.

Fallacy = false notion.
A statement or an argument based on a false or invalid inference. Incorrectness of reasoning or belief; erroneousness.

No fallacy here sir, some % of Pontiacs installing a 4L80e need tunnel massaging, no 200-4r swaps do. But agree even if you did need to massage, not a big factor, just nice to not have to which is what I stated.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by GOAT8U2

Agree, the tunnel mod shouldn't be a factor in swapping.

As far as I know, 100% of 200-4r fit without tunnel mods, that's hard to beat.

Even if most people said the 4L80e fit a 1968-69 GTO without tunnel work, some said they needed it, then you claim the statement is a fallacy when admitting 1964-67 had to massage it.

Fallacy = false notion.
A statement or an argument based on a false or invalid inference. Incorrectness of reasoning or belief; erroneousness.

No fallacy here sir, some % of Pontiacs installing a 4L80e need tunnel massaging, no 200-4r swaps do. But agree even if you did need to massage, not a big factor, just nice to not have to which is what I stated.

If you want to wordsmith, be my guest, but the small dent that may or may not be required, depending upon which year transmission core is used. The 91-96 cores don't have the mid cooling line as GM moved the line in 97 models and require no dent in any of the transmission tunnels. If a person used an early core there would be no need whatsoever for a 2 minute hammer fix in any transplant vehicle.

Your statement qualifies no particular model years or any core years, the average person reading the statement thinks every 4L80E transplant needs some type of sheet metal remedy in order to fit. That isn't true, so is that an accurate statement? I'll call it a semi fallacy to soothe your mind.

Every time I see this debate the 200 proponents always mention having to rework the underside of the car when using a 4L80E, the implication is that you're going to have to remove the transmission tunnel and severely dissect the tunnel for clearance, and that is a fallacy. The truth is, a hammer bump in only 4 years of early A body cars if you use the late core, if you use the early core no interference in any car models, or years of the core. Most times the information is not first hand, and is exaggerated internet crap.

The 4L80E is essentially a T 400 with an OD unit added to the rear, anyplace a T 400 fits, a 4L80E will also fit. Anyone that owns a ball peen hammer, and knows which end to hold, can easily solve the problem is a minority of model years.

There is also an aftermarket cooling line modification kit that can be used on the later cores that requires no hammer bump in any model years in any body. Likely designed for people that either don't own a hammer, or are unskilled in how to use it.

One other thing is the supply of 200 cores is getting more scarce every year, and the desirable cores were always in short supply (SS Monte Carlo, turbo Buick). The price is also going up on cores. The 4L80E cores are very plentiful and easy to find. Even good used transmissions that are functional and could be used for a transplant are readily available. The aftermarket TCMs are plug and play, and come with a wiring harness. If you can change engines, you're likely qualified to do a 4L80E swap.

I own 3 trucks with 4L80E transmissions, all are 250,000- 280,000 miles on original transmissions. I have never seen a 200 equipped car run that many miles in factory stock form. This attests to the design of a very robust transmission design from the beginning. The 4L80E is descended from the T400 which was put into production cars in 1964, 75% of the internals will swap from a T400 to a 4L80E, and are well supported from aftermarket sources. You can go to any parts store, or transmission shop and get parts for one. No need to wait for a few sources to buy expensive specialty billet parts from.

Seriously I'll take parts availability, and design strength over the possibility of putting a dent in my transmission tunnel any day.

A few years back I weighed all the pros and cons of OD options for a 450 HP street car I'm planning. After some pretty extensive research the 4L80E was the best bang for the buck as well as one of the strongest and the most likely to never need any attention over my lifespan. During that time I also bought a K3500 dually turbo diesel truck, driving, towing, plowing snow etc, further cemented my decision that a 4L80E is going to be the right choice for myself. Your mileage may vary.

[GOAT8U2]

My friend, you are reading into this ....
"Fits without tunnel work is nice"
And going way too deep here on what that meant.
100% of 200-4r fit, that's nice, not the main factor but nice.
No one thinks a 4L80e can't fit, we know this.

You used the word Fallacy, this was intended to shut down my comment. Ok fine, then you now tell me I'm a wordsmith when your words contradicted yourself and aren't 100% accurate. 4L80e has some tunnel massaging, NO 200-4r does. This is nice in that fact, again not huge. If you want to use words that are intended to shut down a post fine, but Fallacy didn't apply here.


We all know the 4L80e is a stronger trans, it's also not exactly an easy swap, you forgot many parts and the fact it needs something to talk to it that the user must tune, the TCU.

Since you opened the door...

Can you just install a 4L80e trans and drive away, or is there more work and knowledge needed to get it to shift etc in a car foreign to this trans?

How much did that cost and the total time vs a 200-4r swap, are they even close to equal? Nope

Are we recommending using junker 4L80e trans and unknown TCU health, sounds like parts gambling. As you stated, a lot of these are 100-200k miles, sounds like a deal, until its not.

If the person isn't making huge power and has a core, which one is easier, less time and cheaper start to finish?

That's the point of the thread, OP would lean 200, his thread relevance matters.

[Goatracer1]

I don't want to argue about which is a better swap. I only want to say that the 200-4R swap is easy. My son and I swapped the 200-4R from his 1987 Turbo Regal to my 1967 GTO with T400. We at the same time swapped my T400 to his car. This was all done on a Saturday. Same driveshafts (different yokes). Shift works conversion kit. Both cars were being driven by evening. I would call that simple.

[Steve C.]

Compare the first and overdrive ratio between the two different transmissions.



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[RocktimusPryme]

To the OPs original question, somebody out there wants the 200R4. While clearly there is debate over if its the right move, there is a market for them. But like B-man said garage built transmission might be a hard sell. You might have better value on your time by just buying it as cheaply as you can and just trying to flip it. Market the core better than the original owner. You might be able to make some money rebuilding it, but maybe not too. And how much is your time worth. Now if you just want to build a trans with your neighbor and maybe make some cash too go for it.

As to the debate that has spawned from this.......

There isnt really a wrong answer here on the 200R4 vs 4l80e debate because its what do you value more? There are certainly people who are going to shun the 4l80e immediately because electronics = complicated=bad. Me personally, TV (throttle-valve) cables scare me to death. Im not saying I am right to feel that way, but I do. I would rather have the electronic controller.

Stuff like this gets hairy on message boards. This isnt exactly catalogued data, how many 200R4s swaps have been done, how many blew up, vice versa. How many miles did they get. How much more expensive is a 4l80E swap on average? You tend to be dealing with a lot more Qualitative data and less Quantitative data.

I would say this....... while I have seen plenty of people say they are happy with their 200R4 swap, I have also seen plenty say they torpedoed multiple units as well. I cant think of one single instance of a person who has done a 4l80e swap and regretted it. Im sure it exists, but doesnt seem as prevelant.

[Steve C.]

Since it was mentioned I'll add this tidbit.....

I can highly recommend the Bowtie Overdrives TV and Throttle Cable SYSTEMS.

http://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/



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[Skip Fix]

Back in the old NMCA days Lawrence Connelly a Buick guy had a pretty freaking fast boosted full bodied Buick GN with a 200R(not the chassis car he later ran).
Lots of 10 second GNs with them.