[gtorich]

Thanks Mick, will check that out also

Mike the roller lifters are Johnson High Performance Hydraulic Roller Lifter Set JLI-2112OPR-16
JLI-2

Will take a look at them tomorrow, i take it there should be no marks on these at all. These are only two yrs old, oh boy.

So far from most comments, about the only think i could use is maybe my timing cover, the one with the dimple for the tri power.

I was hoping starting from scratch didnt really mean starting out with nothing. lol

Lets see if i got this right, so far

Should maybe try a different block
Should replace the rods, all the bearings
Might as well get new pistons
Might as well get a new crank
Might need new roller lifters
Get a oil pan with a baffle
So far it looks like i can keep my timing cover and that little cam plate thing.......lol...........yep, i think that covers starting over, i"ll get this figured out yet.

Rich

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by gtorich

Ok, today got the pistons out, bearings are a little scuffed up, no idea on what they used to put the balancer on, but i tried 3 different impact, nothing would move that bolt, so i put a bolt in the crank flange and used a breaker bar, you can see the bolt bent a little, wonder if that did any damage to the crank, not that im gonna ever use this crank again.

Gonna get the cam out tomorrow, hopefully thats not shot, this has been a real learning exercise, hope i never have to go thru this again.

I"ll send a pic of the cam tomorrow.


That last pic of the piston was the last one i pulled out, all the others seem to have the rings pretty tight on them, this one was really full of oil and the rings seemed real spongy, will check out better tomorrow, wonder if something was broken on that piston.

Rich

You are going to want to catch 2 bolts on the back of the crank with whatever you put in there to keep it from spinning. Better yet, find a Milwaukee or Bosh 1/2" 20V electric impact and they will have no problem getting that balancer bolt off. The electrics are stronger than just about any air gun. They will snap a 1/2" grade 8 bolt like its nothing.
Tim at bullet can dust that cam off for you and make it new again. Far cheaper than a new Old Faithful and a lot easier to find.
There is a lot wrong with your engine and it sucks. Attention to detail is everything.

[78w72]

I dont have much input on the parts or if they are bad, but what is wrong with the pistons that they cant be reused? Or the rods or even the crank? Hard to tell condition by some pics, have a new reputable machine shop check them out to make that decision before jumping into new parts if yours check out good.

Best to keep your glass half full vs half empty on this.

[HWYSTR455]

You could take that approach, but the cost would be the same or more than buying an already balanced rotating assembly.

Add it up. Post the cost of:

Crankshaft - clean, mag, inspect, turn, and polish =
Rods - Clean, mag, inspect, and resize =
Pistons -R&R, Clean, inspect, check pin fit, etc =
Balance rotating assembly =
New bearings =
New rings =

Give the total coast of above, and then compare it to a balanced rotating assembly of all new parts, and no need to mention that it would also be a stroker crank.

Also keep in mind it costs to have the hardware just checked, and if any is determined unusable, that money is spent. There is also a risk of any part failing in operation, due to some potential overlooked issue. And sorry, the risk is not the same with new parts.

Post the shop and costs here so all can see it and determine for themselves. And the 'oh I have a friend that will do some for free' doesn't count.

.

[grivera]

OP - is the current crankshaft forged?

[HWYSTR455]

It's an OE crank.


.

[1969GTO]

just looking in at the cost info

[HWYSTR455]

Here's an example from a place called Paragon Engines:

https://paragonengines.com/machineshoppricing

Crankshaft - clean, mag, inspect, turn, and polish = $95+$345 = $440
Rods - Clean, mag, inspect, and resize = $120+$80+$220 = $420
Pistons -R&R, Clean, inspect, check pin fit, etc = $120+$80+$95 = $295
Balance rotating assembly = $375
New bearings = $95+$130 = $225
New rings = $185

Total = $1940

This does not include shop supplies or tax, and I could have very easily missed a couple things. The Butler stroker kit with a cast crank is $2399.


,

[78w72]

Wasn't doubting costs, which will vary by location as well as not all work listed may be required, was just asking the question... what is wrong with the pistons based on the pics or info given? Pretty sure they are a name brand forged with low miles, same for the rods, looks like H beams with low miles and never raced or abused based on how he drives. Cant they all be kept together & reused if no noticeable issues or at a minimum have the new shop check for size?

Butlers kit will be $2500 after tax/shipping, I didnt check if shipping was included. Much of the listed labor work to check and assemble things is required for either set up. If the crank checks out good with minimal machine work needed, that may be better than a cast china crank? Just saying the other option of reusing most of those expensive parts is worth the cost of checking before jumping into a full new rotating kit, IMO glass half full approach.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by 78w72

I dont have much input on the parts or if they are bad, but what is wrong with the pistons that they cant be reused? Or the rods or even the crank? Hard to tell condition by some pics, have a new reputable machine shop check them out to make that decision before jumping into new parts if yours check out good.

Best to keep your glass half full vs half empty on this.

With his issues I would run a aftermarket non serrated crank and BOP one piece.
And not let the same shop fit the seal or do it myself.

[HWYSTR455]

Butler checks and preps the 'china cranks', they have a good reputation and stand by their' work.

But you're right, it is an option. My point is cost is close to same for new stuff, and there's less overall risk involved.

Block would still have to be done too.

Looking at the bearings there's either a block or crank issue, or both. You spend the money to have it checked and turns out you can't use it, that labor money is down the pipes.

Considering the condition of the rest of the engine, I suspect the pistons would be 'marginal'.


.

[Formulajones]

Agree, whether you check fix and maybe reuse existing stuff or buy a rotating kit you're going to be in it for $2500 or more.
Give or take a few hundred bucks is honestly splitting hairs at this point.

Remember this isn't about saving a few bucks, the op has been through this thing more than once already. Do it right do it once. Trying to do it cheap and expect a different result is the definition of insanity.

Just spend the dough, use a reputable shop and wrap this thing up once and for all. This crap just ain't cheap anymore when you do it right.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

With his issues I would run a aftermarket non serrated crank and BOP one piece.
And not let the same shop fit the seal or do it myself.

Definitely a new shop... the crank is up for debate until it is checked out to know its condition, serrations can be dealt with for no cost... personally I would rather have an original N crank checked out good than a cast aftermarket crank, checked out or not, its still a cast crank from china that Ive heard a few Pontiac & many other brands horror stories, but overall Im sure they are ok, just not as good as original. Again he doesnt race the car or abuse the engine, either crank would be ok but wont know about the original until its checked out.

Pistons & rods should be more than marginal, I havent seen or heard any reason to indicate problems with those in the pics or details so far and they are quality parts. Highly unlikely they went "bad" or unusable due to whatever caused the leak or the bad bearings... check them out & reuse them if possible. Based on what some have said and pics/details, the problems here sound like poor assembly from a bad shop... not the parts.

Assuming they are bad for some undetermined reason is what I call glass half empty, its not being cheap to reuse perfectly good parts and it will not cost $2500 to check and reuse the parts in a new or checked out good current block from a reputable shop.
Lots of the labor/assembly cost listed above has to be done to new parts anyways so that doesnt really apply comparing a new rotating kit price to reusing existing parts. I'd estimate at least $1k savings reusing most the parts, if he feels or finds a new crank is needed then buy that, whether a good original or cast/forged new, but the rest of the parts are most likely ok to reuse once checked out.

Its his money, Im just trying to save him some that he has spent a couple times now at shady shops with a more reasonable approach than buying all brand new parts when most of them are probably or possibly perfectly ok to reuse.

Hope you get this sorted out as cost effective as possible Rich.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by 78w72

Definitely a new shop... the crank is up for debate until it is checked out to know its condition, serrations can be dealt with for no cost... personally I would rather have an original N crank checked out good than a cast aftermarket crank, checked out or not, its still a cast crank from china that Ive heard a few Pontiac & many other brands horror stories, but overall Im sure they are ok, just not as good as original. Again he doesnt race the car or abuse the engine, either crank would be ok but wont know about the original until its checked out.

Pistons & rods should be more than marginal, I havent seen or heard any reason to indicate problems with those in the pics or details so far and they are quality parts. Highly unlikely they went "bad" or unusable due to whatever caused the leak or the bad bearings... check them out & reuse them if possible. Based on what some have said and pics/details, the problems here sound like poor assembly from a bad shop... not the parts.

Assuming they are bad for some undetermined reason is what I call glass half empty, its not being cheap to reuse perfectly good parts and it will not cost $2500 to check and reuse the parts in a new or checked out good current block from a reputable shop.
Lots of the labor/assembly cost listed above has to be done to new parts anyways so that doesnt really apply comparing a new rotating kit price to reusing existing parts. I'd estimate at least $1k savings reusing most the parts, if he feels or finds a new crank is needed then buy that, whether a good original or cast/forged new, but the rest of the parts are most likely ok to reuse once checked out.

Its his money, Im just trying to save him some that he has spent a couple times now at shady shops with a more reasonable approach than buying all brand new parts when most of them are probably or possibly perfectly ok to reuse.

Hope you get this sorted out as cost effective as possible Rich.

Not talking about any cast crank. Forged non cross drilled or nothing.

[gtorich]

Hey thanks for the replys boys, Mike & Scott do make good points, giving both some thought. Mike wanted to see the lifters so got a couple pics here. These were bought two yrs ago, im waiting to hear, those are not supposed to look like that.

So far havent been able to find any shops that even want to do the work, seems they are all too busy, called Wayne Schenick in milw, but he hasnt called back yet...........so far Paul Knippens is about the only one willing to work with me somewhat.............im just trying to avoid the shipping parts to him and shipping the motor back to me.

This is getting frustrating to say the least. But i really do appreciate the help im getting from you guys.

If anyone knows of a shop that will do the work let me know, i mind driving some, im about 100 from milw.

Rich

[gtorich]

Got to learn how to spell........................supposed to be i dont mind driving some distance, just not to texas.

Rich

[JLMounce]

If you're shipping, I'd throw my hat in to give Greeley Automotive Machine a call. They did my engine last year and did a great job. They've got a BHJ fixture and utilize the new Fentech balancing machines and Rottler H85AX hone.

They can also source any of the rotating assembly you might need. They were detail oriented and very communicative with my on my build. I re-used my factory crank and supplied my own cam, but with a line hone, bore and torque plate hone and opting for their wet sump race engine build and their dyno, my cost with them came out to around 6200.00.

The only thing they don't really do is porting cylinder heads. They can rebuild and surface as necessary. It sounds like you'd re-use your SD 290 heads anyhow, might just need a quick cleanup.

[gtorich]

Jason, thanks for that info, i remember you being real happy with their work.............when i meant by shipping, was talking to paul knippens, was gonna send him my heads and cam, he was gonna put them in the 428 he had for sale. Then i would only pay bigger bill one way. Still on the fence with the 428, nothing to do with the price either. Just the stock crank and SD rods and the 4.195 bore, that i just noticed trying to figure something out.

Paul was helpful suggesting Wayne Schenick name, im sure i have that mispelled, buy so far i havent heard back from him.

Any of you other engine builders on this site within 300 miles from me, wanting to take on a challenge, give me a PM

Rich

[gtorich]

Grind number P8 3122B / 3120B HR112.0
Rated 289 / 306 at .006" tappet lift
236 / 245 at .050"
112 LS / 108 ICL
Lobe lift .3800" and .3830"

Sent cam to bullet today, Tim said from the pic i sent him it the marks should clear up on a polish.................lets say that might not happen, was told i could make this into something different profile, anyone done that . Bascially would like to have the power a little lower in the rpm range, usually the most i go is 5000-5500. Any thoughts on this, sounds like its about 200 to do something, so a little cheaper than buying a new roller.

Rich

[HWYSTR455]

If the cam would clean up that would be good, I've never had that done before.

That really doesn't appear to be a very aggressive profile, are you running headers or manifolds? That spread favors the exhaust, something that would be used with manifolds.

I don't think you can polish the lifter wheels, they kind of look like it was just a ton of trash going through the engine.

Maybe someone else can chime in.

.