[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by steve25

Just to keep all our Ducks in row here and to reinforce what Paul had in an earlier post the casting number is 197, not 191.
The full part number of the head was 481197.

Also let's not forget about what Paul said about date codes. Early production 197 heads didn't have them. It's highly unlikely the SDRA heads that were cancelled in early 1970 would've had them.

[JSuchma]

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

The local guy I bought my SR RAIV heads from in the late 80s worked at a Pontiac dealership in parts had a 79 TA he street raced that had some 71 HO heads he said had 72cc chambers from the factory as cheater heads. Solid roller cam Warrior single 4 intake used McCreary sticky dirt tires and would pull the front wheels on the street. Heard the windshield popped out of the T top car on one launch.

Hey Skip.....that's the guy I went to high school with. He got those heads from H.B. Bailey, and as far as I know, he never worked a day in his life! His parents were filthy rich, and he just bought whatever he wanted back then. The 79 T/A is being restored as we speak.
In 1979, he brought said TA to my parents' house on a trailer straight from the dealer with only a few miles on it. Still had the window sticker in place. I recall asking what he was going to do later that evening, and he told me he was going home to pull the motor out of it and put a 455 in its place! True story.

BTW....I need to catchup with you to return some items that I have of yours.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by 73T/A

.Would Pontiac have been casting SRS 197 round port cylinder heads as late as January 1977?

My guess would be yes.... I have an SD455 SR block with a 1977 date code

[Tellyshavilli]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

My guess would be yes.... I have an SD455 SR block with a 1977 date code

All 1971 455HO Heads that have a date cast in them are always dated either December 1970 or January 1971 . I’ve been checking the dates for at least 30 years on these heads, we may find a pair with a different date, but probably a service date. I would say there is a zero on the end of the date on these heads

[73T/A]

Originally Posted by Tellyshavilli

All 1971 455HO Heads that have a date cast in them are always dated either December 1970 or January 1971 . I’ve been checking the dates for at least 30 years on these heads, we may find a pair with a different date, but probably a service date. I would say there is a zero on the end of the date on these heads

It looks like one head does have a zero on the end.The other head looks like a 7 maybe.I would have never thought that Pontiac would cast a head 6 years after production on a lower volume casting such as a 197 head..

[johnta1]

Maybe the opposite of the head casting code?

the 197 casting code looks like 191, maybe the A077 is a A071?

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Maybe the opposite of the head casting code?

the 197 casting code looks like 191, maybe the A077 is a A071?

Possibly.... Or maybe it was cast January 7 1977

[Skip Fix]

Jeff his parents did have a pretty nice house when I went to pick up my RAIV heads and he showed me that car. New bare never assembled or had a valve job!

[73T/A]

Originally Posted by steve25

Pontiac engineering U.P.C codes tell the progression of engine development and the time span of usage in many cases.

The code only changed when significant changes were done for the most part.

A few brief examples.

L-74. All high comp 400 4bbl medium performance motors from 68 to 70.

L-78 all low comp 400 4 bbl medium performance motors from 1971 to 1979.

L-67 1968, RA1 D port, RAII round port, so where into the round port era now.

L-67 1969 and 70, RA4 motors except in the F body .
These RA4 engines in 1970 got a LS-1 code

L-75 base line 455 engines.

LS-5 1971-72 455 round port HO.

LS-2 455SD.

So the 455SD was in development as early as 1971

The LS-2 U.P.C code is to me the most likely reason for all the number 2 stamping on your heads there.

Note that once engineering got to making a 455SD 16 preproduction casting that they put the air injection boss back in across the top of the exh ports in case they needed to add a air pump to meet emissions.

Here are molds of an Intake and Exh port from a non ported 455SD production head.

Thanks for the detailed info on the various UPC head codes.On a update I mentioned that I located four number 1’s on the other cylinder head.They are configured just like the number 2’s on the other head.Gor some reason somebody wanted them individually identified.But both heads do have the RUSS stamping with 10750 stamping below.

[VCho455]

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

The local guy I bought my SR RAIV heads from in the late 80s worked at a Pontiac dealership in parts had a 79 TA he street raced that had some 71 HO heads he said had 72cc chambers from the factory as cheater heads. Solid roller cam Warrior single 4 intake used McCreary sticky dirt tires and would pull the front wheels on the street. Heard the windshield popped out of the T top car on one launch.

Those McCreary Oval Star slicks from the 70's were the best! It's too bad they are no longer available.

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by steve25

Pontiac engineering U.P.C codes tell the progression of engine development and the time span of usage in many cases.

The code only changed when significant changes were done for the most part.

A few brief examples.

(removed)

LS-5 1971-72 455 round port HO.

LS-2 455SD.

...

my understanding is that RPO/UPC codes were reused, and issued by the parent company - not necessarily a divisional thing;
As an example a 1969 Chevelle could have been ordered with an L78, and so could a same year GTO;
In the case of the GTO it was the ‘base’ 400/4bbl engine - for the Chevelle it was much more special.

Here is my correction of the engine codes which Pontiac used, and what I removed from above:

L-30: 350/2bb 1968-1977

L-65: 350HO 1968/69; 350/4bbl 1974-1977; best 350 you could get for the given year

L-67: 400 ‘Ram Air’; 1967-1968.5 ‘D-port’; 1968.5-1970 ‘round-port’; the best 400 you could get for the given year

L-74: 400HO 1967-1969(?); “RAIII” 1969-1970; one step down from the L-67

L-75: 455/4bbl 1970-1976; “bread and butter” 455 performance engine for which ever model year

L-78: 400/4bbl 1967-1979; “bread and butter” 400 performance engine for which ever model year

LS1; (purported) RAIV-SD 1970; did not pass pre-production stage.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

No idea where you are located or where you bought the heads --
- but if anywhere near Greensboro NC area -
- they were likely done for Russ that worked at Motor Bearings on Patterson Ave.

Longshot
He was always building HiPo Poncho stuff for a while in the 80s and early 90s

[sdbob]

I had friend working ,going to school GMI he was working in dyno room at Pontiac. He gave me the dyno sheets from the SD455 about 1976. I've given them out to many people over the years.( he ask me to keep them to myself then at 1st POCI orange county I gave them to Pete for the first time) they are dated1970 at the top. I do have nos push rod tubes. Interesting heads

[73T/A]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

No idea where you are located or where you bought the heads --
- but if anywhere near Greensboro NC area -
- they were likely done for Russ that worked at Motor Bearings on Patterson Ave.

Longshot
He was always building HiPo Poncho stuff for a while in the 80s and early 90s

Thanks for the info.Im not anywhere near NC.I bought the heads 24 years ago.They were purchased out of state maybe Florida but not one hundred percent sure on that.I was trying to remember were I seen them advertised might have been the old Classical Pontiac classified section on line or maybe eBay.I know I paid cashiers check.Its been a long time ago.

[Tellyshavilli]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Maybe the opposite of the head casting code?

the 197 casting code looks like 191, maybe the A077 is a A071?

I’m going with a cast mistake and should be A071

[73T/A]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Some better pictures would be helpful.

All original service RAIV and early 197 heads didn't have date codes. It'd be a bit odd that the 1970 RASD head would have them.

From what you can see of the intake flange rail they look thin in the pictures. Possibly because the intake side was milled to match the deck. H-O heads could be safely milled to 91-93 CC.

The exhaust ports look heavily ported, a lot more than the heads that were ported by the shop modifying them for the Pontiac engineering department.

It wasn't uncommon for a head porter to install the SD455 sleeves for the same reason Pontiac did. They were available over the counter and easily obtainable.

Not sure why RUSS would have his name stamped on the heads unless he was afraid of loosing them.

The four 2's definitely looks like something the engineering department may have done but they were pretty slap happy with the numbered punches and like to use X a lot.

I found a rather lengthy article in which Herb Adams discusses the 303,,366 and 455-SD,Tom Neil,Jeff Young and Russ Gee are all in the article also.In the article they say that the sent heads out to three different head porting companies.Two located in California and one in Florida.One being Air Flow Research.Herb mentions that they sent some Ram Air IV heads to these companies and told them to do the works on them.They mention that the 455-SD was a clean sheet design using what they had discovered at Air Flow Research..Also mentions that it was Russ Gees idea to take what they learned on the 303,366 race programs and use it in the 455-SD.

[73T/A]

Originally Posted by Tellyshavilli

I’m going with a cast mistake and should be A071

It does look a little funky.When it’s blown up it looks like the horizontal portion is about half of the other also the vertical has more radius to it.

[73T/A]

Thinking back when I acquired the heads they were fully assembled with what appeared to be factory hardware.Valves appeared to be of OEM variety.Still had the factory 3/8 bottle neck rocker studs with factory stamped rocker arms.These 197 H.O. heads were ported to 455 SD specs such as pushrod tubes,raised roof on intake ports were rocker stud and valve cover holes were exposed and exhaust port was configured to SD also.So if a private individual were to have taken these heads to a machine shop/head porter looking to increase head flow and performance why would they use factory OE hardware and also not get the exhaust cross overs filled..The cylinder heads are marked as a matching pair as both heads have the RUSS and 10750 stamping on them.So then why have the heads individually marked with the four number 2’s and four number 1’s?These stamps are not free hand stamps looks like a special made gang stamp to fit in that location.One possibility that sounds plausible to me is that they were individually stamped in those exact locations for identification for testing.Maybe flow bench testing then they could record and document each individual cylinder head.Pontiac not only had their dyno test facility but also had their own flow bench.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by 73T/A

I found a rather lengthy article in which Herb Adams discusses the 303,,366 and 455-SD,Tom Neil,Jeff Young and Russ Gee are all in the article also.In the article they say that the sent heads out to three different head porting companies.Two located in California and one in Florida.One being Air Flow Research.Herb mentions that they sent some Ram Air IV heads to these companies and told them to do the works on them.They mention that the 455-SD was a clean sheet design using what they had discovered at Air Flow Research..Also mentions that it was Russ Gees idea to take what they learned on the 303,366 race programs and use it in the 455-SD.

That's good information. Pontiac Engineering sent heads to AFR, Crane and Mullins. They were original service RAIV heads. The AFR were the clear winners and they were too busy to supply heads for Pontiac, so with AFR blessing they had Diamond Elkins copy AFR's work. It forged a long relationship with Elkins and later they helped develop the Turbo Regal heads. I've had heads and blocks come through my shop that came from the Pontiac Engineering Department. They had all kinds of numbers stamped on them. A lot more than just four twos and four ones. They really liked X and /. I've also worked on Pontiac round port heads that were worked on by Crane, Mullins and Elkins. All of them have the company name stamped on the ends of the heads. NONE of them had pushrod tubes installed.

There's a paper floating around written by a Pontiac engineer that used the AFR/Elkins head on the Pontiac flow bench that suggests the pushrod tubes and the port design changes at the flange for the SD head. Both those changes are incorporated into the SD heads.

The Unicorn 1970 RASD head was cancelled long before your heads were cast. We have a knowledgeable member here saying all 197's were cast around the same time. If Russ wanted to work with a special head why would he go with a 197 head? Why not the improved 7F6 head? He would full well know a RAIV head or SD head would kick the crap out of a 197 head. We all know that and he had access to a crap ton more information than we do.

If he used one of the RASD Unicorn heads would we assume the wrong later dates were added just to confuse the issue? Unfortunately we have no pictures of your intake ports but we know your exhaust port exits have been hogged out much farther than anything Crane, AFR, Elkins or Mullins was doing back in the day.

[PAUL K]

Really, I think it's more plausible these heads were done by these guys rather than a secret Pontiac back door operation..... JMHO