[RocktimusPryme]

https://youtu.be/uzW2CVt0C2k

I mentioned in some other threads that I was in the middle of a junkyard brushless PWM controlled fan swap on my 67 Firebird.

That has been implemented and is successful. Short background, my car has a 461 and a 19" clutch fan with a cold case radiator. Been in for years, and its fine, but like many setups it would creep at stoplights, or at a stop. Never kept me from driving it but it did make me afraid of getting doing something like Power Tour where very slow moving traffic was a possibility.

My fan swap from a 2009 Volvo XC90 has been in for about a month now, and even at only 60% duty cycle, it keeps the car at at the thermostat. Even better, when its been heat soaked from a stop, it will now come down in Coolant Temp at idle, where before I would have had to start driving to get the temps to come down. And unlike some electric fan swaps I dont have any issues at cruise speeds.

Important Notes:

1. I have a Terminator X, which allows for a Negative PWN signal. You arent dead in the water if you dont have a similar system, but you would need a controller to use a brushless fan. Interestingly, I dont think the Sniper systems have a PWM output but some of the other affordable units (FITech, Aces) may. Not sure. There is probably someone out there on YT who has perfected a cheap controller.

2. These fans while large in diameter are less than 4" in depth. Way less than the famous Lincoln Mark VIII fan so they will fit in tighter spaces.

3. DO NOT Wire them backwards. While a normal brushed fan will spin backwards, you will murder a PWM fan. I did it twice. I started with a 2004ish Mercedes SL500 Fan. Ended up using the Volvo fan because I killed the Mercedes one. Then I killed a 2005 Volvo one. I still think the shroud of the Mercedes fan is a little better, even though the volvo one has proven to work fine.

4. These Bosch fans are in all sorts of stuff from Mercedes, BMW and Volvo. Volvo in particular seems to have gone to a proprietary fan in like 2007?? Plug and shroud are similar but the motor is a little different. Other than that all the 18.25 Bosch fans will just hop from shroud to shroud with a few screws.

5. I did have voltage issues after the swap with a 78 amp 12SI alternator. Especially once the fan got over 40% duty cycle on my table. I swapped to a 140 amp 12SI that was on sale (otherwise I probably would have done a CS130 swap) and still had issues. Then I upgraded my charge cable size and was fine after that. So you may need a new alternator, but you also may just need to have a bigger charge cable if you have a 94 amp or larger alt.

I know the video is a little long, Ill probably cut it down later and release a short version as well. But YT seems to prioritize longer content sometimes. Ask any questions and Ill try to answer, I know there are a lot of horror stories with E fan swaps going wrong, but this one is good so far.

This really wasnt hard. If I hadnt killed two fans experimenting I would have been into this for the whopping cost of $5 for the fan, a $10 Maxi Fuse, and then my alternator upgrade if you want to count that.

[JLMounce]

Thanks for sharing. The whoa is me styled section in the middle, your music track completely drowns out your monologue. You may want to review that.

For reference, the FiTech system does not have a PWM controlled negative. The non-power adder systems have a single - ground trigger and the power adder systems have two for either a second fan, or a high speed mode. So they only work with brushed fans, or brushless fans like the ProForm units that don't require a controller and are wired for 100% duty cycle when triggered.

On your tuning, can you set your x axis to speed? I believe you've have to send the terminator x your VSS signal, but that would allow you to completely shut down the fan when you're above a certain MPH.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

Thanks for sharing. The whoa is me styled section in the middle, your music track completely drowns out your monologue. You may want to review that. Unfortunately, you cant upload a fixed audio version. I can upload a new video with corrected audio. But there are horror stories about YT thinking you are spamming and pulling your channel.

For reference, the FiTech system does not have a PWM controlled negative. The non-power adder systems have a single - ground trigger and the power adder systems have two for either a second fan, or a high speed mode. So they only work with brushed fans, or brushless fans like the ProForm units that don't require a controller and are wired for 100% duty cycle when triggered.

On your tuning, can you set your x axis to speed? I believe you've have to send the terminator x your VSS signal, but that would allow you to completely shut down the fan when you're above a certain MPH.

Thank you for the feedback. Volume gets wonky sometimes because what might be super clear over my headphones may not be on all systems. And now that I think about it, at the very end after I watched it all, I used the "Normalize Loudness" function, on the whole video. That may have bit me in that area. Def something I will think about before I do that on a whole video again. At least it wasnt in an important area. I was mostly just making fun of myself for being stupid.......because it was exxxxtra dumb what I did.

Edit* I just tuned into that out of curiosity, I do think the normalize loudness function got me, but something else happened there too. Because I had cut that song so it was only playing the soft sad violin, and cut it off before it got into the louder part of the song. Now I feel like I need to look at the whole thing again, because I wonder if some of the graphics moved. Its like microsoft Word sometimes where you move a picture and it breaks the whole document. I trimmed most of it out. You lose a little context, because I dont explain how Im an idiot and killed the fan. But its better than the alternative. Unfortunately with YTs online editor you can only make cuts, not additions.

I was also recording in stereo once before and had a few viewers tell me I had no audio on a couple videos. Turns out they just had one broken speaker and my voice was only coming from one speaker. I try to constantly improve the production quality, just because I like to do a good job where I can, but its also just me messing around to an extent. So I try not to take things overly seriously. I get a lot more positive feedback than negative, and it does make my day when I get comments from people telling me I helped them, but man the editing is a slog. Especially on longer videos like this.

And Im sure you can set the X to speed, I dont have a digital input speedometer sender so I couldnt. But There is a dropdown of options a mile long. When I was doing reasearch I saw a Holley forum thread where an expert said "I dont like to use RPM" but he never expanded on why...... In my case it didnt seem to make a difference because I was only triggering based on CTS anyway. Long term I might set up an override signal of some kind so I can have the fan on with the engine off in the staging lanes.

[RocktimusPryme]

I went ahead and fixed the video and just reuploaded

NEW LINK!!

https://youtu.be/VwRpUaRNieo

The old link will still work, but its going to go to the old video with the audio problem in the middle. I moved that video to "Unlisted" so you will only see it if you have the link to it.

I also added some more clear text when I was standing in front of the chalk board, because it was not easy to read the numbers. Knowing my proof reading abilities I probably misspelled something. Ill just live with that.

[Squidward]

I really enjoyed the video. And I love junkyard adaptations!

The comparison of radiator sizes and surface area was awesome. I went through some similar math exercises, to even include number of rows and tube sizes. Cold Case has the biggest tube sizes (1.25") for their 2 row, which makes it the leader in surface area. Champion-style 4 rows use 5/8 tubes, which comes out to the same tube area, but there must be a reason why the OEM's don't use 4 rows on today's builds...

I will keep this in mind for my next junkyard crawl. I need to make a small list for my truck, and the weather is finally breaking a bit where it isn't as life threatening.

I haven't achieved GREAT results with my Proform brushless in series with a flex fan, so my mind is still open to a low dollar option like this. I run FiTech with a single ground trigger to a relay that gives either on or off. Your project has inspired me to explore a PWM controller. And if nothing else, I can geek out on how it works.

Ya GOTTA love the soft start of the brushless fan.

You are right about the charging wire. Me personally, I'm dropping around half a volt from the alt output stud to the tie-in point on a circuit breaker, in what amounts to about a 3 foot piece of 10? gauge wire. It's a good idea to make it bulletproof with fat wire and good soldered terminals instead of the crimp ones. Put that on my list...

[JLMounce]

The factory wiring isn't designed to really handle those amounts of electrical load. Most of these cars delivered with a 60 amp alternator.

The factory harnesses are nice though in that they are plug and play. So, what I do is run an MSD solid state 4 channel relay. It's connected directly to the battery with a 4 gauge wire and powers all the extras I have. FiTech, trans computer, electric fan and the ignition. Keeps things clean safe and the load isn't being carried by the factory wiring.

[Squidward]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

The factory wiring isn't designed to really handle those amounts of electrical load. Most of these cars delivered with a 60 amp alternator.

The factory harnesses are nice though in that they are plug and play. So, what I do is run an MSD solid state 4 channel relay. It's connected directly to the battery with a 4 gauge wire and powers all the extras I have. FiTech, trans computer, electric fan and the ignition. Keeps things clean safe and the load isn't being carried by the factory wiring.

For sure. I have lots of wiring cleanup to do on mine, especially with all the wires running under the driver side fender.

Any pics? I need some inspiration!

I put a breaker on the driver side radiator support. From there I run a battery wire, similar to the factory setup, across the firewall to the battery. I also run the alt charging wire to the same breaker terminal. Both wires are upgraded, but they are likely 10 gauge with crimp on ring terminals. I think I am definitely due for something a little heavier. IIRC, the factory used either the horn relay or the voltage regulator as the positive voltage tie-in point. Both of those are long gone on my car.

[JLMounce]

I have mine mounted on the front of the core support. With the upper close out panels this hides the extra wiring fairly nicely.

I think there’s probably better spots for it though. The relays can tolerate water, they just state not to spray them with a pressure washer.

[cmoc-bob]

Didn't read the entire post in detail, but check out this company.

I used their controller, they have some cool stuff. So to speak. PWM controller's too.....made in America.

https://www.autocoolguy.com

[Squidward]

Saw the site. Looks like a hobbyist who likes to geek out, and decided to put a product together. I totally appreciate that.

I'm curious what direction the electric fan market will go. Will it stay with brushed DC fans that need pwm to prevent high starting spikes? Will it go more with brushless motors that might not need a pwm unless you want precise speed control? The OEM's might likely decide it.

The brushless motor/pwm setup reminds me of the brushless motor/ESC setups I would use on RC airplanes. I wonder if any of that stuff is compatible? Hmm...

[cmoc-bob]

Well,, he's been around a long time, has commercial versions of these, etc.

Guessing a small business keeping things in-house.

Years ago at our new car auto show, I still remember seeing Ford trucks using electronically controller clutch fans.

Kinda going back to what we used.

I'm wondering about the brush/brushless fan world too. Like you said, time will tell.

[RocktimusPryme]

The affordable controller option I have seen come up is Widgetman. I dont have any experience, but Ive heard the name in a positive light more than once. They also make a polarity inverter. So like in my case I can only output a -PWM signal, this would convert it to a positive if needed. Ill be honest though, considering Proform advertises that little cheap non weather sealed controller to control their fans. I probably wouldnt hesistate to use one. I would just buy a couple of them and keep a spare in the glovebox.

https://gkgoodcheapparts.com/product...ss-fan-control

https://www.240turbo.com/BrushlessFans.html
This volvo 240 page also had a TON of helpful information I used as I was putting my swap together.

As far as my charge wiring. In retrospect I did mine stupid, but its functional for now. I have a relatively new American Auto Wire engine harness. I didnt want to cut all that sleeving off to remove the stock charge wire and replace it. Plus the first gen birds have that silly design where the whole car runs through the horn relay.

So what I did was run an additional 8AWG wire basically in parallel with the factory wiring. You guys probably know this, but electricity is basically like water, current is going to take the path of least resistance. So it worked for what I needed it to, but was overly complicated. In retrospect, I should remove that additional wire, leave the factory wiring where it is, and just run an additional thick charge wire to the starter, which is on the same side on my car. My starter is started to act up and needs replaced soon. When I replace the starter Ill change the wiring around

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

https://youtu.be/uzW2CVt0C2k

I mentioned in some other threads that I was in the middle of a junkyard brushless PWM controlled fan swap on my 67 Firebird.

That has been implemented and is successful. Short background, my car has a 461 and a 19" clutch fan with a cold case radiator. Been in for years, and its fine, but like many setups it would creep at stoplights, or at a stop. Never kept me from driving it but it did make me afraid of getting doing something like Power Tour where very slow moving traffic was a possibility.

My fan swap from a 2009 Volvo XC90 has been in for about a month now, and even at only 60% duty cycle, it keeps the car at at the thermostat. Even better, when its been heat soaked from a stop, it will now come down in Coolant Temp at idle, where before I would have had to start driving to get the temps to come down. And unlike some electric fan swaps I dont have any issues at cruise speeds.

Important Notes:

1. I have a Terminator X, which allows for a Negative PWN signal. You arent dead in the water if you dont have a similar system, but you would need a controller to use a brushless fan. Interestingly, I dont think the Sniper systems have a PWM output but some of the other affordable units (FITech, Aces) may. Not sure. There is probably someone out there on YT who has perfected a cheap controller.

2. These fans while large in diameter are less than 4" in depth. Way less than the famous Lincoln Mark VIII fan so they will fit in tighter spaces.

3. DO NOT Wire them backwards. While a normal brushed fan will spin backwards, you will murder a PWM fan. I did it twice. I started with a 2004ish Mercedes SL500 Fan. Ended up using the Volvo fan because I killed the Mercedes one. Then I killed a 2005 Volvo one. I still think the shroud of the Mercedes fan is a little better, even though the volvo one has proven to work fine.

4. These Bosch fans are in all sorts of stuff from Mercedes, BMW and Volvo. Volvo in particular seems to have gone to a proprietary fan in like 2007?? Plug and shroud are similar but the motor is a little different. Other than that all the 18.25 Bosch fans will just hop from shroud to shroud with a few screws.

5. I did have voltage issues after the swap with a 78 amp 12SI alternator. Especially once the fan got over 40% duty cycle on my table. I swapped to a 140 amp 12SI that was on sale (otherwise I probably would have done a CS130 swap) and still had issues. Then I upgraded my charge cable size and was fine after that. So you may need a new alternator, but you also may just need to have a bigger charge cable if you have a 94 amp or larger alt.

I know the video is a little long, Ill probably cut it down later and release a short version as well. But YT seems to prioritize longer content sometimes. Ask any questions and Ill try to answer, I know there are a lot of horror stories with E fan swaps going wrong, but this one is good so far.

This really wasnt hard. If I hadnt killed two fans experimenting I would have been into this for the whopping cost of $5 for the fan, a $10 Maxi Fuse, and then my alternator upgrade if you want to count that.

Interesting on the voltage. I ran a 96 amp alternator and a Delta Control controller with a Mark 8 fan, no issues.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

Interesting on the voltage. I ran a 96 amp alternator and a Delta Control controller with a Mark 8 fan, no issues.

I think a 90+ amp alternator would be sufficient, I ended up switching to a 130ish amp Mr Gasket unit, and initially still had trouble. Then I upgraded the wiring and now its fine. So the factory wiring was a bottleneck for me.

So while I do not think the 78 amp unit was enough with my other electronics, I think an 80s like 3rd gen 90 amp alternator would be fine with an upgraded charge wire.

I dont like how I did my wiring, Im probably going to re-do it, but its functional now and I have too many other projects to re-break something thats working just because I dont like it.

That said this thread is the better part of a half year old and that Volvo fan is still doing great.

I never thought about how loud a mechanical fan is at moving air, but the electric fan is actually quieter. I notice I can hear more of the engine going down the road.


I also talked to a EE from Spal at PRI a couple of weeks ago, about the polarity of PWM signals. He said that going with a negative polarity (he called it Low Side) is a slightly cleaner signal, but said there was no deleterious effects to running a fan that is programed for negative signal with a controller thats pulsing positive. Obviously, your duty cycle feedback will be reversed (10% will be fast and 90% will be slow) but at least this one guy said it was fine. So I wouldnt hesistate to buy one of those super cheap controllers (or two so you have a spare) and run one of these junkyard fans with it.