[MIke L]

Ok, I hesitated to post this because the answer seems so obvious but I thought I’d give you guys a laugh anyway!

I’ve used Sunoco 93 with 10% Ethanol for over 20% yrs now I guess without any stabilization (Startron Sta bill)

Recently a few stations have started selling 93 leaded fuel but at one of those stations at WalMart which I’m sure isn’t one of those “top tier” producers (Exxon, Shell, Mobil etc) so no telling what’s in it.

The car runs good with no audible detention.
So the question…
Since I have no real problem using the 93 w/ethanol doesn’t still make sense to use the 93 leaded as was intended even tho from a “off the wall” unknown supplier???

My ‘65 389..
30 over 77 heads
Flat top 4 VR pistons
(Average 190 compression, 1% leak down)
Nunzi 2041HL cam
(222 232@50, 113LS, 70 O/L)
Hardener valve seats
1.52 rockers
3:55 rear
4spd
12 deg initial ported timing
4 barrel Carter
Temp max’s out around 195 deg in Florida summers

Thanks


Mike

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

Originally Posted by MIke L

Ok, I hesitated to post this because the answer seems so obvious but I thought I’d give you guys a laugh anyway!

I’ve used Sunoco 93 with 10% Ethanol for over 20% yrs now I guess without any stabilization (Startron Sta bill)

Recently a few stations have started selling 93 leaded fuel but at one of those stations at WalMart which I’m sure isn’t one of those “top tier” producers (Exxon, Shell, Mobil etc) so no telling what’s in it.

The car runs good with no audible detention.
So the question…
Since I have no real problem using the 93 w/ethanol doesn’t still make sense to use the 93 leaded as was intended even tho from a “off the wall” unknown supplier???

My ‘65 389..
30 over 77 heads
Flat top 4 VR pistons
(Average 190 compression, 1% leak down)
Nunzi 2041HL cam
(222 232@50, 113LS, 70 O/L)
Hardener valve seats
1.52 rockers
3:55 rear
4spd
12 deg initial ported timing
4 barrel Carter
Temp max’s out around 195 deg in Florida summers

Thanks


Mike

I don't think it's leaded.....Do you mean "non ethanol" ? I run non ethanol because I still have rubber lines in my fuel system.

[78w72]

No stations sell leaded gas, its eth or non eth... now some places sell E15 thats lower price, higher eth & usually 88 octane. But you get less mpg & power since ethanol has lower BTU's than non eth. I prefer the 91 non ethanol over 93 with ethanol.

Modern rubber fuel lines can handle ethanol fine but not the older stuff original on 70s & mid 80's cars... but thats so old it should be replaced with new anyways.

[MIke L]

Yes,
Sorry you guys are right
I meant 93 octane Non Ethanol.

Also, I’m having all fuel lines inspected and replaced if necessary.




Mike

[The Champ]

Using pure gas (no ethanol) should deliver slightly higher fuel mileage than E10.

The E10 should be less expensive which should more than cover the price difference.

Locally I can buy Top Tier 91 octane for as low as $3.19. To purchase non ethanol Top Tier 91 the price is $4.09.

[MIke L]

Thanks for the reply’s
The cost difference is 40cents per gallon but I really don’t care.
A full tank lasts awhile as I don’t drive it as much as I should.

The highest top tier no ethanol is 90 octane here so it’s either that with a booster, 93 non ethanol or the 93 with it and a stabilizer.

That’s what I can’t decide.




Mike

[chiphead]

Ethanol provides a significant amount of the octane rating. It also evaporates, so as fuel sits, the octane rating drops as the ethanol and aromatics evaporate. It also eats sending unit floats, hoses, fuel pump diaphragms, and other components that don't like ethyl alcohol. Upgrade those components whenever using E-10 fuel.
I don't really pay attention to gas brands. There may be some difference to how a station blends motor octane and research octane to get the RON/MON, and the additives a certain brands uses. I find that Parkers gas runs better than Circle K, but that may be a local to me difference due to a dirty store tank or a local blender's fuel rack settings.

I use E10 93 when I drive it regularly, its the only 93 I can get here. The only downside is it failed my last fuel pump. For storage, I'll run the car dry, then use 90 octane straight gas when the car sits.

93 non-ethanol for storage or long periods of not driving, to avoid ethanol evaporation.

93 with 10% ethanol when the fuel is being regularly consumed and replenished.

[MIke L]

Originally Posted by chiphead

Ethanol provides a significant amount of the octane rating. It also evaporates, so as fuel sits, the octane rating drops as the ethanol and aromatics evaporate. It also eats sending unit floats, hoses, fuel pump diaphragms, and other components that don't like ethyl alcohol. Upgrade those components whenever using E-10 fuel.
I don't really pay attention to gas brands. There may be some difference to how a station blends motor octane and research octane to get the RON/MON, and the additives a certain brands uses. I find that Parkers gas runs better than Circle K, but that may be a local to me difference due to a dirty store tank or a local blender's fuel rack settings.

I use E10 93 when I drive it regularly, its the only 93 I can get here. The only downside is it failed my last fuel pump. For storage, I'll run the car dry, then use 90 octane straight gas when the car sits.

93 non-ethanol for storage or long periods of not driving, to avoid ethanol evaporation.

93 with 10% ethanol when the fuel is being regularly consumed and replenished.

Thank You Chiphead!
That’s what I needed as it can sit for a few weeks to a month at a time.

I appreciate it

Mike

[JLMounce]

For a carbureted vehicle, I would prioritize non-ethanol fuel where possible, unless the price is prohibitive.

93 Octane is going to be 93 Octane regardless of the make-up of the fuel, but as already mentioned, ethanol will off-gas and you lose some octane over time. It's not fuel you really want to store a car with. Additionally e10 is much more volatile than pure gasoline. As a result it has less resistance to heat before it boils. This is important with carbureted vehicles to keep the fuel from boiling in the bowls and possibly causing vapor lock.

Your profile states you're in florida, so it does get hot there, but you don't have to deal with altitude that further lowers boiling points of e10 fuel.

If you currently don't have any issues with running the 93 e10 variant. Rubber parts have been upgraded, not fuel boiling issues with the carb, then I'd continue to run that as I'm sure it's 10-20 cents or more cheaper than the pure gasoline mix. If you store your car for periods, fill the tank with the non-ethanol variant for storage.

[Shiny]

I speculate corrosion risk for metal parts is lower with ethanol-free gas.

For a car that sits in a humid climate, I think anything that might reduce water absorption is worth trying.

[MIke L]

Originally Posted by Shiny

I speculate corrosion risk for metal parts is lower with ethanol-free gas.

For a car that sits in a humid climate, I think anything that might reduce water absorption is worth trying.

Shiny
That’s an excellent point I never thought of.
The humidity down here in SW Florida is stifling at times.
With an un air conditioned garage there are times when it’s hard to breathe in there without the 3 fans I have blowing on it constantly.

I’m gonna use the non ethanol 93 and go from there.

Thanks Fellas for all the help


Mike

[Nobuddy]

I would do the non ethanol 93. Other that the mystery of what it is compounded from. But there are all kinds of solvents and refined byproducts in all pump "reformulated" gas as mandated by the EPA.

Not sure about the evaporation part, I suppose there is some from the original unsealed fuel system but that also applies to other fractions of the gasoline, not just the ethanol.

Also - for additives to normal pump gas, nothing beats 100LL avgas.

[Sirrotica]

Having driven a fuel tanker for more than a few years, all this BS about top tier fuels is exactly that. I've delivered Sunoco, Marathon, Citgo, etc. to no name generics stations and delivered generic fuel to branded dealers as well. Generally unbranded dealers buy from whoever has the lowest price. Fuel companies trade fuel all the time.

In the late 70s early 80s I leased a Pennzoil service station, although there was a Pennzoil refinery within 60 miles of my station, and their gas was one of the best fuels in our area, there was also a bargain basement refinery (United Refinery) about 10 miles closer to me. 90% of the time my gas came from the crap refinery. United also had some service stations close to the Pennzoil refinery that they traded product to reduce shipping charges. I was a branded Pennzoil dealer selling the crap gasoline that came out of United refinery because the two refineries were saving a few dollars on shipping charges by trading product. The customers of the crap stations close to the Pennzoil refinery were getting a much better product/value for their money.

If it's a franchised dealer they likely will have a contract to buy through that brands jobber/wholesaler. In most every loading rack the fuel is coming from one pipeline shared amongst all the loading racks.

Fuel is graded by weight (specific gravity) restrictions, and as its loaded the additives are introduced into the fuel. There is no anti knock testing going on in each batch of fuel, just specific gravity tests. If you buy no additives you get ethanol and gasoline blended at the time of loading. If you buy a better (more expensive) blend you'll get detergents added at the time of loading. Same gasoline, same ethanol.

I buy unbranded fuel all the time for my own use, never had one problem due to fuel quality in my own vehicles, diesel and gasoline. If it were my own car, I'd buy the 93 non ethanol unbranded and sleep just fine.

When you've been around fuel racks. service stations, and refineries for a good part of your life you find out the little nuances that oil companies do to save a penny here or there, much like the auto industry cheapening parts and pieces to save a nickel and it ends up ruining their reputation. I.E. GMs 6.2 LS engine debacle, among other GM mistakes that the book keepers thought looked good on paper. Mistakes, (intentional or accidental) in fuel blending are much more forgiving than not polishing crankshafts in engines before assembly.

[Schurkey]

1. "Top Tier" fuel does not refer to the branding on the refinery. It refers to the detergent additives in the fuel. The base fuel can be from anywhere.

2. EPA requires a minimum-amount of detergent additives. "Top Tier" fuel has more detergent additive than the EPA baseline.

3. "Top Tier" fuel can be of any octane rating. There's a similar "Top Tier" additive package for Diesel fuel.

Gasoline Top Tier emblem:


Diesel Top Tier logo:


4. E15 will void the warranty on small engines including various motorcycles, snow-mobiles, lawn 'n' garden equipment, etc. Older cars are specifically NOT recommended for use with E15. E15 is a gigantic political/economic mistake.

5. STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM "BLENDER PUMPS", where you choose the amount of ethanol in your gasoline. This is triple-important if you have a small gas tank--a penalty box, a motorcycle, a two-gallon gas can for your lawnmower, etc. Depending on the previous user, there can be heaps of ethanol in the plumbing. You select "E10" but you get E45 because the lines are already full of ethanol from the previous user who wanted "E85".

6. I ran "Gasohol", M05 for about six months, and then E10 for about 45 years as my fuel of choice. I've used E10 in Rochester, Holley, Mikuni, Keihin, Techumseh, Briggs 'n' Pitiful, and other carburetors. I've used E10 in TBI, and various port fuel injection systems. In all that time, I've never had one single problem I could blame on the E10 per se. I've gotten water-polluted gasoline in my boat, because the marina underground fuel tank leaked lakewater inside. But that's not the fault of the E10, that's the fault of the underground tank and the fuel station management. I've seen other vehicles--especially in the early years--come in with water in the gas tank, again because underground tanks allowed groundwater to seep in.

I've HEARD about rubber hose deterioration, I've HEARD about carburetor corrosion. I actually SAW carb corrosion--a well-known if short-lived problem with some Holley carbs that Holley knew about and offered warranty on because the carb plating was defective.

I've had several small engines--weed-whackers, leaf blowers, chain saws--where the clear-plastic fuel hoses rotted. I don't think that's an E10 problem, it's a "shytty Chinese fuel hose" problem. And I had a small generator that had a foam-filled gas tank to reduce fuel slosh, and the foam rotted away to jelly. Again, that's not an E10 problem, that's a crappy foam problem.

E10 is a fine motor-vehicle fuel. It's horrible environmental, fuel, and food POLICY, it's a lie wrapped up in deception and forced on the public by mandates and tax dollars...but it's a fine fuel.

7. After forty-five years of use, and no inherent problems, the only reason I can think of for the bad publicity of E10, is that in some areas of the country, they're dumping toxic waste into the gasoline to "safely dispose of it"; and it's the industrial sludge that's causing problems, but the Ethanol gets the blame because they're not telling you that some percentage of your gasoline is not gasoline and not detergents or octane improvers, it's some sort of waste product you're not supposed to know about. But I've been wrong before.

[The Champ]

A number of years ago, my ACDelco trainer told me about a test done on E10 fuels around the country. They compared Top Tier fuels to off brand fuels.

The Top Tier fuels all had 10% or less of ethanol. The off brand fuels in some cases had 20% or more of ethanol. Ethanol can be purchased separately for less than E10. I don't think any refinery would send out fuel with 20+ % of ethanol as E10, so one could validly assume that the off brand stations were doing their own 'mixology'.

It's for this reason I choose to only buy Top Tier fuel or fuel from a known reliable source.

[Sirrotica]

The blending is done at time it's loaded into the tanker, no one is blending fuel in service stations. When the tanker driver loads the fuel, we could see what component was being blended, and if the specific gravity was needed to be less, more ethanol was put into the mix, have I seen it more than 10%, yes I have. I've also seen it at much less than 10%, it gets adjusted to fall within the weight parameters for that blend of fuel.

Ethanol is subsidized by tax dollars, so it is definitely cheaper to blend than oil hydrocarbons are.

You have to have been around blend racks and refineries to actually see how it's done, talk to the operators that actually oversee the blending to know what takes place.

There's not enough money in fuel profits for service station owners to be doctoring the fuel after it's in the ground. You can't buy each component in bulk separately, so it isn't feasible to mix anything at the point of sale.

There are no real checks and balances to know what ends up in the tanks at your local gas station, you're at the mercy of the oil companies. Is the octane correct, is the ethanol concentration under 10%? Did the detergent get added to each and every batch of fuel, is the additive tank empty or contaminated, who knows?

From my perspective of leasing a service station for 5 years as well as driving a fuel tanker for 4 years, this is all information I sought out about fuels I was retailing to the public, as well as distributing to fuel retailers. You wouldn't find much of the information on the internet, as most people have little actual knowledge of what goes on with fuel blending. I don't profess to be an expert at this subject, but likely have more practical information than many people do.

Top Tier fuels are sanctioned by auto manufacturers, did they actually test random batches, or did they take the oil companies word for it? Having inquired about laboratory analyzation of fuels before, the process is expensive. I was interested if the fuel I bought for my service station met minimum octane requirements after blowing a hole in a piston. That was the crap fuel that came from the crap refinery I posted about earlier.

BTW all the top tier fuels in and around central Ohio are sold under Shell, Marathon, and Sunoco, I've pulled every one of those brands and dropped them at generic stations as well as non branded convenience stores, and branded dealers, so what's top tier, and what isn't? They come from the same source no matter who is retailing them, After my dealings with oil companies over the years I don't believe anything they say, I take as much stock in what an oil company says as a used car salesman. The information I have came from people that actually operated the equipment at these facilities, not salespeople or company executives.

That's the information I have, you can believe whatever you'd like, or disregard every bit of it, makes no difference to me. I have zero incentive to embellish anything I've posted.

[tjs72lemans]

I quit using 10% ethanol in my classics. I rebuilt a Holley carb twice (over a period of years), only to find the inside of carb full of a white powdery substance. I also had vapor lock and boiling fuel. I now only use ethanol free in all my classics and Harley. I have since then (about 25 years) never had another issue. Newer cars with fuel injection are different, since there is no fuel to sit in carb to evaporate and leave residue.

[grivera]

The only non-ethanol near my is 89 octane tops- to me 93 non-ethanol occasionally is a no brainer over the 10%, assuming the cost isn’t prohibitive.

[Formulajones]

Ive been running 10 percent ethanol 91 octane in all the classics for 20 years now. About 7 or 8 of them are driven on a semi regular basis, 3 of them driven more often as dailys.

Never any issue with the fuel even though the fuel is crap compared to the Midwest stuff where better octanes are available. The only non ethanol here is 87 octane so I don't bother, and it's only one station that has it and it's 20 miles on the other side of town. So I just don't use it.

Cars run fine on the 10 percent ethanol 91 stuff. No issues with vapor lock or any drivability on a daily basis. My Chevelle and Dad's GTO goes 10's on it, my son's Vega goes bottom 12's on it, my bone stock firebird goes high 12's on it
Sure I'd like to have pure fuel in 95 octane or better but you'll also pay out the @$$ for it so that wouldn't be practical for me since I daily drive these things. The ethanol fuel works just fine for me.