[charlie66]

So, I'm being told that I can use solid lifters on my hydraulic roller cam. Is anyone doing this here that can say if it's true and what their results have been. I am hearing that all you do is lash it to .008-.010 depending on if the block is iron or aluminum and it will be fine. I've been told that solid lifters are stronger and last longer than hydraulic. Is this true? It's sounds like it could be something good to consider if it was durable over time.

Can anyone explain more on this?

Thanks

[tom s]

You will loose about 8 degrees of duration and some lift depending on what you set the lash at and rocker ratio.Better off just buying a tight lash solid roller cam and lifters .Also you will need to increase the spring pressure as it now a solid roller cam.Comp told me 200 on the seats.Its has been done with many for many years.Tom

[Jay S]

I frequently run solid lifters on bigger HR cams. But I zero lash the solid lifters cold and let the hot expansion be the lash. There is light friction on the pushrods, i don’t use a feeler guage when I do it. The cam does not loose much duration doing it that way over HR lifters. Engine master did a test like that a few years ago and gained 8HP thru the entire power band over a side by side test with a HR lifters. I have ran lash, but it is easier to do and overall works best with no lash set cold. We use the same valve springs as the cam would with a HR lifter. I do add some extra seat pressure though depending on the set up. The engines I have done are 6500 to 7000 RPM street and strip engines and .640 ish lift 240 to 260 @.050”. There are not many mechanical roller profiles that I know of that can do the same thing without another 100 lbs of spring. Which is my reasoning when doing it.. When it needs SR springs I run a SR profile. I have never been back into reset the lash, they run pretty quite. Some are quite enough you can tell they have roller cams.

More lash equals less duration at the vale, same as any mechanical cam.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Jay S

I frequently run solid lifters on bigger HR cams. But I zero lash the solid lifters cold and let the hot expansion be the lash. There is light friction on the pushrods, i don’t use a feeler guage when I do it. The cam does not loose much duration doing it that way over HR lifters. Engine master did a test like that a few years ago and gained 8HP thru the entire power band over a side by side test with a HR lifters. I have ran lash, but it is easier to do and overall works best with no lash. We use the same valve springs as the cam would with a HR lifter. I do add some extra seat pressure though depending on the set up. The engines I have done are 6500 to 7000 RPM street and strip engines and .640 ish lift 240 to 260 @.050”. There are not many mechanical roller profiles that I know of that can do the same thing without another 100 lbs of spring. Which is my reasoning when doing it.. When it needs SR springs I run a SR profiles. I have never been back into one of the the readjust the lash, it doesn’t seem to move.

Do you think I could do it with the cam I just bought from Butler? The springs I have right now have 140lbs on the seat I think 325 open at .550. with 1.810 installed height so there is room to shim. I wanted to do it, but I was worried about failure just because I have no experience at all doing this and it's not my motor. Is there any risks in your opinion? I just don't know if the solid lifter will hold up over time as the hydraulic lifter will. I didn't go solid cam because I was told that the size I wanted was too small for a true solid cam profile. So, he told me I needed to go hydraulic with solid lifter. But I never heard of doing this before so I felt uncomfortable trying it.

[Jay S]

I am coming up with a 336 lb per inch spring rate with the numbers you mentioned. Is that a single flat tappet spring? Or is it a dual? A dual might work with a shim if that number was measure from a tester on the actual spring. I need more details on the springs. It sounds a little light unless I figured that wrong. I will double check my numbers.

I wouldn’t be concerned running that cam as a hybrid as long as you set the lash tight like I described. A nice lifter like a BAM with pin oiling would go as long as any HR lifter. They have bigger axles and larger .75” wheels, and are very rugged. All the HR lifters are .7” wheeled and have much smaller axles and bearings. Usually the Sat lifter are overkill unless you over spring it and run the lash loose. I have done $450 Doug Herbert (Morel) pin oiled lifters on hybrids and they have worked great for the money. Crower cutaways and Comps Endurex have been ok also. I think BAM is the top mechanical lifter though.

As far as what works as a hybrid, and what doesn’t, my general rule for mechanical lifters on hydrualic cams is to check where the tappet has 1* change in duration per .001” degree in lift on the closing side of the cam. On an Extreme energy Comp like yours that is about .006” tappet lift. If you multiply .006” tappet times the rocker ratio, that is the max ideal lash it should run when everything is expanded hot. The same pretty much holds true with a full mechanical cam. If the engine expansion creates to much lash and the lash is much beyond that hot lash it is adding to much acceleration to the valve terrain, and you really need as SR profile or a lazier HR profile. If you can set the lash tight enough cold that it can stay below that number hot after expansion, the solid lifters work well. If you don’t like it, it is a roller cam, you can swap any roller lifter back on it.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Do you think I could do it with the cam I just bought from Butler? The springs I have right now have 140lbs on the seat I think 325 open at .550. with 1.810 installed height so there is room to shim. I wanted to do it, but I was worried about failure just because I have no experience at all doing this and it's not my motor. Is there any risks in your opinion? I just don't know if the solid lifter will hold up over time as the hydraulic lifter will. I didn't go solid cam because I was told that the size I wanted was too small for a true solid cam profile. So, he told me I needed to go hydraulic with solid lifter. But I never heard of doing this before so I felt uncomfortable trying it.

After thinking about this. I wouldn’t use that Butler profile with Solid roller lifters on a Pontiac with Aluminum heads. Even zero lashed cold the hot lash window is to tight. It is the wrong HR profile. That’s needs an HR lifter like an Evolution HR, Gaterman, or Johnson PR lifter. I could show you want the profile should look like if you’re interested in running SR lifters on a HR profile. But I could pick a full SR profile out also. That Butler cam isn’t a good choice for this.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Jay S

After thinking about this. I wouldn’t use that Butler profile with Solid roller lifters on a Pontiac with Aluminum heads. Even zero lashed cold the hot lash window is to tight. It is the wrong HR profile. That’s needs an HR lifter like an Evolution HR, Gaterman, or Johnson PR lifter. I could show you want the profile should look like if you’re interested in running SR lifters on a HR profile. But I could pick a full SR profile out also. That Butler cam isn’t a good choice for this.

Ok, I will take your word for it. Looks like I need to go Hydraulic then. What do you feel would be the best Hydraulic lifter for this cam? Butler talks about measuring the base circle to the oil hole in the block with the cam installed. So, I guess I'll have to do that and then find the best one that fit those needs. What do you think is the best/strongest lifter out there that you would use? After all the axle and wheel sizes you were talking about, I'm figuring you may know what the best choice will be. Is there a brand that you like best. I don't have much experience with hydraulic; I usually only use solid. But this motor is just a mild streetcar for a friend. In the past ive used comp Crower and recently Bam. But I don't think Bam makes Hydraulic lifters or I would buy them. Back in 2004 I had some bad luck with a set of Comp rollers. The caps for the axles were walking out of them. I'm lucky I caught it. That was the last time that I used Hydraulic.

[Jay S]

Both BAM and Gaterman are ran by people that came from Crane. They are separate companies, but Gaterman to me is the hydrualic roller counterpart to BAM. If Gaterman lifters are in stock they are my first pick. They have pin oiling and a better plunger feeding features than all the other HR lifters. I wish they had floating axles like most SR lifters, but Morel is the only ones that have that feature. Morel doesn’t have enough control on the bleed rates for that cam. You are not the first person to have the staked axles slide around.

If the Gatermans aren’t available a Comp Evolutions are my second choice unless the springs are extra heavy.

[67Lemons]

Good luck, I occasionally check for the Gaterman GP-1008 on their website and can never find them in stock. The only place I’ve seen them is on the Schneider cams website and they aren’t cheap, I decided on the Comp Evolutions for about the same money.

https://www.schneidercams.com/HYDROLLERlifter5610.aspx

[grivera]

I have the evolutions on my 66 with the Old Faithful 1 cam, but very little run time on them. They do make a sewing machine sound at 800-850 rpm. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP_s1wJKm_Y

[Jay S]

Nice car 66!

For Gaterman’s call them directly. They can check who has them in stock or when the next batch is available.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Both BAM and Gaterman are ran by people that came from Crane. They are separate companies, but Gaterman to me is the hydrualic roller counterpart to BAM. If Gaterman lifters are in stock they are my first pick. They have pin oiling and a better plunger feeding features than all the other HR lifters. I wish they had floating axles like most SR lifters, but Morel is the only ones that have that feature. Morel doesn’t have enough control on the bleed rates for that cam. You are not the first person to have the staked axles slide around.

If the Gatermans aren’t available a Comp Evolutions are my second choice unless the springs are extra heavy.

I went on Gatermans site and there's no pricing.

What about the Isky lifters. My machinist keeps letting me to get them. What's your thoughts on the Iskys?

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Both BAM and Gaterman are ran by people that came from Crane. They are separate companies, but Gaterman to me is the hydrualic roller counterpart to BAM. If Gaterman lifters are in stock they are my first pick. They have pin oiling and a better plunger feeding features than all the other HR lifters. I wish they had floating axles like most SR lifters, but Morel is the only ones that have that feature. Morel doesn’t have enough control on the bleed rates for that cam. You are not the first person to have the staked axles slide around.

If the Gatermans aren’t available a Comp Evolutions are my second choice unless the springs are extra heavy.

I went on Gatermans site and there's no pricing.

What about the Isky lifters. My machinist keeps telling me to get them. What's your thoughts on the Iskys?

[Jay S]

I have not seen that Isky HPx are available with Pontiac link bars. I assume your machinist is talking about the HPx. It would be great if they were available for a Pontiac, all it would take is a different link bar. I think the HPx lifters are completely in a league of their own as far as advancements. They are 7500 RPM lifters that can run spring pressures and 525 lbs springs. They have a bushing option also. They are made by Johnson in Taylor Michigan.

Johnson PR’s are limited travel and would work about like the Evolutions but they are not pin oiled and don’t have the advancements in the plunger feeding like the HPx. Isky and Johnson worked together to come up with the HPx and are more advanced than a PR. The PR will handle more spring pressure than an Evolution.

[Dragncar]

I like the idea of just running a smaller solid roller and DLC BAM lifters. Then run a stud girdle to help keep lash.
Too many horror stories with Hyd roller lifters for me.
These things are EXPENSIVE and take so much time and effort to get right to mess with them IMO.
Those lifters on a small cam would last just about forever. Many OEM cars run solid lifters. The wife's Volvo even has solids.

[Region Warrior]

Why hydraulic anything? Solid been king since 50s.Go SFT dont look back! Have spare 255/263 on shelf for 20 some yrs jic one from 90s gos bad.Had relplace some lifters and springs. Thats easy!

[grivera]

Originally Posted by Jay S

The PR will handle more spring pressure than an Evolution.

What is the safe high limit for spring pressure with the CC Evolution HRs?

[tom s]

I run 150 on the seats with the Evos.Tom

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by grivera

What is the safe high limit for spring pressure with the CC Evolution HRs?

It depends how aggressive the profile is. The body is rated for up to 500 lbs. But they won’t make it anywhere close to 500 lbs in a Pontiac and perform well. I’d say 150lbs seat an 400 open with .650ish lift is safe with the Bulter XR cam and evo’s. The OF1 could probably run about 165 lbs and 430 open with .650 ish lift and go a few hundred more RPMs than the more aggressive XR.

The Johnson PR’s (which are also reboxed as some Crowers and Isky’s) have a bigger diameter plunger and can handle aggressive cams, but the bodies are not as heavy as the evolutions and they do not have pin oiling.. The Isky HPx are rated for 535 lbs and 185 lbs seat at 7500 RPM. Some Morel short travels are up there also, but they are more of a race lifter an do not last well on the street.

[Dragncar]

I have a all broken in Crower sft that will get over 500 HP just sitting on a shelf.
I would run it before any hyd roller.