[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Jay S

I should have looked at those part numbers closer. Those are pin oiled. I”ll look into those closer.

So you think i should go with the johnsons if there not oiled axles?

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Jay S

If I remember right you have a Bullet cam in that SBC too. They are easier to make quiet than these XR comps. That should have been dead quiet. (Edit)think the Bullet is in the 327 has HLJ SE’s. I am not sure which engine has Evo’s?

That is correct the 327 has a bullet cam with HLJ SE's.
I just finished up a 383 (3000 miles so far) and put the evo's in it just to try them since they had rave reviews. Not working out for me.

[grivera]

Larry, does yours so like mine?

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by charlie66

So you think i should go with the johnsons if there not oiled axles?

I am ok with not having axle oiling. But it is a nice feature. Johnson have it on other platforms. Could be they have it for a Pontiac and I am not aware of it.

There is also a Hylift Johnson lifter that would work with your combo it is HLJ-A-2375SE. They are all USA made with ultra slow precise metering and have pin oiling. But the cost is around $1100. Their down side is they have a very low oil band and on Pontiac’s the power noses over after 6000 when the cam has an aggressive intensity. The Johnson’s PR and ST will make power past 6000 with an aggressive cam.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

That is correct the 327 has a bullet cam with HLJ SE's.
I just finished up a 383 (3000 miles so far) and put the evo's in it just to try them since they had rave reviews. Not working out for me.

What is the cam in the 383?

We took a G body with a 377 SBC to a few races last summer with a 242/248 XR comp. Which is the next step up from this 236/242 cam. It ran well, but was not quiet as far as sowing machine noise, it has the regular comp lifters, not the evo’s. We were shifting it a 6200, it nosed over hard after 6200.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Jay S

I am ok with not having axle oiling. But it is a nice feature. Johnson have it on other platforms. Could be they have it for a Pontiac and I am not aware of it.

There is also a Hylift Johnson lifter that would work with your combo it is HLJ-A-2375SE. They are all USA made with ultra slow precise metering and have pin oiling. But the cost is around $1100. Their down side is they have a very low oil band and on Pontiac’s the power noses over after 6000 when the cam has an aggressive intensity. The Johnson’s PR and ST will make power past 6000 with an aggressive cam.

You're saying my cam is aggressive, do I have to worry about breaking a lifter bore with this cam?

[charlie66]

Are the Howards lifters any good? Nobody has mentioned them so I'm wondering if that just because there no good.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-91466

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Jay S

What is the cam in the 383?

We took a G body with a 377 SBC to a few races last summer with a 242/248 XR comp. Which is the next step up from this 236/242 cam. It ran well, but was not quiet as far as sowing machine noise, it has the regular comp lifters, not the evo’s. We were shifting it a 6200, it nosed over hard after 6200.

The cam in this one is the summit 1203 hydraulic roller. LS fire order and 224 @.050
Idles nice and smooth and made peak at 5700 and makes 14" of vacuum. Perfect driver with lots of grunt. I have the trans setup to shift at 5800. It's a happy engine just lifters are noisy

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by grivera

Larry, does yours so like mine?

Kinda?? Hard to tell.

With the hood shut I don't hear it so much. It's not the sew machine noise that I'm super bothered about even though Johnson's have always been whisper quiet but it's more about one lifter that bleeds down after a few hours of sitting.

Rather than try swapping a cartridge and hope it's better and still have a sew machine I'd rather just swap in some Johnson's and fix both issues in one shot

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by charlie66

You're saying my cam is aggressive, do I have to worry about breaking a lifter bore with this cam?

The possiblity of a lifter bore breaking is not an issue from the cam itself. If something goes wrong on a lifter that is when there is a risk of breaking a lifter bore.

For your cam the average duration it takes the tappet to go form .006” tappet lift to .050” tappet lift is 51*. The smaller that number, the more acceleration and the quicker the lifter starts to move. This is fine, but the lifter has to have a sharp enough bleed rate or it will tick or make extra sowing machine noise. This cam must have the plunger of the lifter bore lockup up by .005” tappet.

This cam is pretty aggressive because the plunger on the lifter does not have much time to recover for the next cycle before it need to open the valve again... The lift isn’t aggessive at all, but the intensity is. A less aggressive cam like a Comp Extreme energy marine HR with 55* of average intensity the lifter has to lock up by .009” tappet to operate quietly, giving the lifter plunger more time to recover and lock up for then next cycle. That is a big difference.

If the lifter can’t lock up the plunger by those points, it has the same effect of running a Mechanical cam with excessive lash. It increase the acceration on the valve terrain and is hard on stuff.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Are the Howards lifters any good? Nobody has mentioned them so I'm wondering if that just because there no good.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-91466

They are made by Morel. The blead rates are usually not great. The work with ok with lazier cams. They are the only HR lifter on the market that have floating axles with snap rings like most mechanical lifters. That part is nice, but they are noisey.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

The cam in this one is the summit 1203 hydraulic roller. LS fire order and 224 @.050
Idles nice and smooth and made peak at 5700 and makes 14" of vacuum. Perfect driver with lots of grunt. I have the trans setup to shift at 5800. It's a happy engine just lifters are noisy

I am familiar with those cams. That is a poster child for having an aggressive intensity. 50* intensity is 55 mm cam tunnel territory. I have done 49* before. It takes ultra ultra razor sharp lifter bleed rates to make that quiet with a SBC cam journal. They run good but usually you have to live with some noise. But I would have thought though the evo could handle it if any could.

[scott70]

Originally Posted by Jay S

I am familiar with those cams. That is a poster child for having an aggressive intensity. 50* intensity is 55 mm cam tunnel territory. I have done 49* before. It takes ultra ultra razor sharp lifter bleed rates to make that quiet with a SBC cam journal. They run good but usually you have to live with some noise. But I would have thought though the evo could handle it if any could.

How do you figure out what a particular cams intensity is?

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by scott70

How do you figure out what a particular cams intensity is?

Average Intensity =

Take Advertised Duration@ .006” tappet and subtract the .050” duation

287*-236*=51*

Smaller number means it is more aggressive.
.

[Stan Weiss]

Remember not cams are equal. You can 2 cams each i 50 degrees from 0.006" to 0.050"

Cam1 could be 25 degrees from 0.006" to 0.050" and 25 degrees from 0.050" to 0.006"

Cam2 could be 22 degrees from 0.006" to 0.050" and 28 degrees from 0.050" to 0.006"

Stan

[scott70]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Average Intensity =

Take Advertised Duration@ .006” tappet and subtract the .050” duation

287*-236*=51*

Smaller number means it is more aggressive.
.

So the bullet HR cam I have coming is 290 236 so a average 54 intensity. Hopefully thats good and quiet.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Jay S

The possiblity of a lifter bore breaking is not an issue from the cam itself. If something goes wrong on a lifter that is when there is a risk of breaking a lifter bore.

For your cam the average duration it takes the tappet to go form .006” tappet lift to .050” tappet lift is 51*. The smaller that number, the more acceleration and the quicker the lifter starts to move. This is fine, but the lifter has to have a sharp enough bleed rate or it will tick or make extra sowing machine noise. This cam must have the plunger of the lifter bore lockup up by .005” tappet.

This cam is pretty aggressive because the plunger on the lifter does not have much time to recover for the next cycle before it need to open the valve again... The lift isn’t aggessive at all, but the intensity is. A less aggressive cam like a Comp Extreme energy marine HR with 55* of average intensity the lifter has to lock up by .009” tappet to operate quietly, giving the lifter plunger more time to recover and lock up for then next cycle. That is a big difference.

If the lifter can’t lock up the plunger by those points, it has the same effect of running a Mechanical cam with excessive lash. It increase the acceration on the valve terrain and is hard on stuff.

Man, I hope I didn't make a big mistake buying this cam. I thought I knew what I was doing. So, the Jonsons will be able to handle this aggressive lobe ok without worries you're saying? I'm wondering if I need a less aggressive cam now.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Jay S

They are made by Morel. The blead rates are usually not great. The work with ok with lazier cams. They are the only HR lifter on the market that have floating axles with snap rings like most mechanical lifters. That part is nice, but they are noisey.

Ok thank you, I guess these are out.

[Steve C.]

Might be of interest....

Choosing cams based on hyd intensity?

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ight=Intensity


.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Man, I hope I didn't make a big mistake buying this cam. I thought I knew what I was doing. So, the Jonsons will be able to handle this aggressive lobe ok without worries you're saying? I'm wondering if I need a less aggressive cam now.

The Johnon 2112OPR will handle that cam, and should be as quiet as any other option. The ST2112OPR will also, but the I don’t think a short travel is needed.

I have never done a set of the Johnson ST’s. I should not have blanket compared the Morel ST to a Johnson ST. What I have seen with Morel ST’s is one goes 30K miles on the street, and the next might break a link bar or loose and axle at 4K. A cam with 53* intensity is my max intensity I will use a regular Morel (which covers Lunati, Bullet, and Howard’s, plus some others.. all are made by Morel). My go to cam company is Bullet cams, and that is my connection to Morel, that is their in house lifter brand. They are a tough lifter, but have a rep for making a lot of noise.. Morels went 100K miles with no visible wear on a spinatron with .650” lift back when they were original tested. The only upgrade they have received is they went to float axles a few years ago, which is a good deal. But as cams have became more and more aggressive (which is an industry trend), noise complaints have gotten worse and worse with the Morel. I tend to not use them anymore. I only set up 1 Morel last year, it was a 53* with beehives.


The Evolutions will handle this cam also. If you by chance end up with a set that has a ticker,I’d just replace that lifter and move on, or look to see if it has debre in the valving. That applies to any lifter from any brand.


Hylift Johnson “SE” can handle this cam easy too, but $$$$. Bullet sells this lifter along side the Morels, and is highly regarded by at Bullet. Most people can’t get past the price, they don’t stock them anymore.