[Formulajones]

That's just it, people need to look past the price
My case in point. The evo's were $700 and the Johnson's are $1000. $300 is nothing in my eyes when your talking about $10,000 engines. But I tried them because of the reviews and I wanted to see for myself before I go using them in someone else's engine. Now i know

As of right now I'm not interested in replacing a cartridge for one that bleeds down, in fact I pulled the covers and rotated the engine by hand and can't narrow down a culprit, none of the plungers moved. Yet I fired it up and one ticks for a second or two.

Now buying the Johnson's I should have in the first place. The $300 difference would have saved me money because now I guarantee I'll be buying another set of $150 pushrods as I doubt the Johnson's are the same height, more gaskets, fluids, and my time will more than surpass the price difference .

Something people really should keep in mind when fixated on prices. Trying to save a few bucks doesn't always equate to savings when things go south

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

That's just it, people need to look past the price
My case in point. The evo's were $700 and the Johnson's are $1000. $300 is nothing in my eyes when your talking about $10,000 engines. But I tried them because of the reviews and I wanted to see for myself before I go using them in someone else's engine. Now i know

As of right now I'm not interested in replacing a cartridge for one that bleeds down, in fact I pulled the covers and rotated the engine by hand and can't narrow down a culprit, none of the plungers moved. Yet I fired it up and one ticks for a second or two.

Now buying the Johnson's I should have in the first place. The $300 difference would have saved me money because now I guarantee I'll be buying another set of $150 pushrods as I doubt the Johnson's are the same height, more gaskets, fluids, and my time will more than surpass the price difference .

Something people really should keep in mind when fixated on prices. Trying to save a few bucks doesn't always equate to savings when things go south

What do you think about the other 3 versions of Johnsons that butler sells compared to the ones you're talking about? Are they not as good of a lifter? I don't understand why the Hy-lifts were made where they won't rev past 6000rpms where the other ones will. I know the band is lower, but does that make them better and more money. I don't care about the cost either. I'm just trying to understand why.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Man, I hope I didn't make a big mistake buying this cam. I thought I knew what I was doing. So, the Jonsons will be able to handle this aggressive lobe ok without worries you're saying? I'm wondering if I need a less aggressive cam now.

On a less aggressive cam I would have suggested solid rollers and not looked back. I have 3 cars set up that way.

The HLJ’s can rev well past 6, they just quit making power and loose valve control with aggressive cams like your cam just past 6. Johnson’s have slightly better valving and similar leak down rates, and seem to rev a bit higher with the same set up. I have HLJ’s on a couple of my engines and shift at 6k. They are done at 6k, and have rev limiters at 6, so what happens after that really doesn’t matter.

[Jay S]

Bulter carries the HLJ “SE”, the end of the description helps describe the limit on RPM’s with them.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-3164...tegory:1234800

[grivera]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

That's just it, people need to look past the price
My case in point. The evo's were $700 and the Johnson's are $1000. $300 is nothing in my eyes when your talking about $10,000 engines. But I tried them because of the reviews and I wanted to see for myself before I go using them in someone else's engine. Now i know

I thought you mentioned before the Johnsons were in the $1500 range? maybe that was a different Johnson?

[Formulajones]

The last set of hylift Johnson's I bought were $1400
The Johnson's with pin oiling are around $1000

Both are decent lifters with high attention to bleed down rates.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Bulter carries the HLJ “SE”, the end of the description helps describe the limit on RPM’s with them.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-3164...tegory:1234800

I ran the set in our 327 to 7300 rpm where we finally saw what appeared to be valve train control going away. It made peak power from 6700-7000

That engine has 145 on the seats for that bullet cam, titanium retainers etc .. so it's not a heavy valvetrain.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by charlie66

What do you think about the other 3 versions of Johnsons that butler sells compared to the ones you're talking about? Are they not as good of a lifter? I don't understand why the Hy-lifts were made where they won't rev past 6000rpms where the other ones will. I know the band is lower, but does that make them better and more money. I don't care about the cost either. I'm just trying to understand why.

Johnson's are a good lifter. Hylifts do rev. I have a set in a 327 I built and it made peak from 6700-7000 and started nosing over at 7300.

But like I mentioned earlier sbc's have lighter valve train components by nature because everything is smaller, and I can get away with less spring pressure. That engine is 145 on the seat.
When you start getting heavier parts like a bbc, like a Pontiac, like a BBF, you'll need more spring to control it and in those cases the hylift may not rev as high without issues. But when we're talking about big engines like that in many cases they are done by 6000 rpm anyway so it doesn't really matter.

[grivera]

OP - in case you haven't read Butler's description of all the Pontiac lifters: https://butlerperformance.com/n-1349...formation.html

[scott70]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

That's just it, people need to look past the price
My case in point. The evo's were $700 and the Johnson's are $1000. $300 is nothing in my eyes when your talking about $10,000 engines. But I tried them because of the reviews and I wanted to see for myself before I go using them in someone else's engine. Now i know

As of right now I'm not interested in replacing a cartridge for one that bleeds down, in fact I pulled the covers and rotated the engine by hand and can't narrow down a culprit, none of the plungers moved. Yet I fired it up and one ticks for a second or two.

Now buying the Johnson's I should have in the first place. The $300 difference would have saved me money because now I guarantee I'll be buying another set of $150 pushrods as I doubt the Johnson's are the same height, more gaskets, fluids, and my time will more than surpass the price difference .

Something people really should keep in mind when fixated on prices. Trying to save a few bucks doesn't always equate to savings when things go south

I went with the evo’s cause what I was hearing was people liked them. You think that lifter is hit or miss?

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I ran the set in our 327 to 7300 rpm where we finally saw what appeared to be valve train control going away. It made peak power from 6700-7000

That engine has 145 on the seats for that bullet cam, titanium retainers etc .. so it's not a heavy valvetrain.

Bullet cam for the win

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Jay S

On a less aggressive cam I would have suggested solid rollers and not looked back. I have 3 cars set up that way.

The HLJ’s can rev well past 6, they just quit making power and loose valve control with aggressive cams like your cam just past 6. Johnson’s have slightly better valving and similar leak down rates, and seem to rev a bit higher with the same set up. I have HLJ’s on a couple of my engines and shift at 6k. They are done at 6k, and have rev limiters at 6, so what happens after that really doesn’t matter.

I'm sorry for being so redundant about this but I'm trying to take it all in. I have zero experience with hydraulic lifters. So, what would be the difference if I used the Short Travel JLI-ST2112OPR-16 to the Hy-Lift HLJ-A-2375SE lifter? What I think I'm understanding so far is one will rpm higher where the other will fall off at 6000rpm but will have pin oiling? with the oil band being lower is that better or worse reliability wise? I thought they all were Johnson made. From what I see Butler sells 4 different lifters made by Johnson? I know I'm dragging this but I'm real close on buying a set so if you can just bear with me on this . Lol

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by charlie66

I'm sorry for being so redundant about this but I'm trying to take it all in. I have zero experience with hydraulic lifters. So, what would be the difference if I used the Short Travel JLI-ST2112OPR-16 to the Hy-Lift HLJ-A-2375SE lifter? What I think I'm understanding so far is one will rpm higher where the other will fall off at 6000rpm but will have pin oiling? with the oil band being lower is that better or worse reliability wise? I thought they all were Johnson made. From what I see Butler sells 4 different lifters made by Johnson? I know I'm dragging this but I'm real close on buying a set so if you can just bear with me on this . Lol

It’s no problem. I enjoy cams and valve terrain stuff. Johnson, Taylor, MI and Topline Hylift Johnson, in Muskegon MI, are 2 different companies. Both are spin offs from the original Johnson company that went bankrupt years ago and both claim to be the original Johnson.

Your cam does not have a lot of lobe lift, the oil band position is not going to be a factor on either option.

Johnson, in Taylor Michigan, is USA made and make the 21120PR and the ST21120PR, they also make a full travel lifter for stock applications. it’s part number is just 21120. The ST2112OPR is as close and you can get to acting like a mechanical lifter. The limited travel 2112OPR are a little bit of a compromise, and are what I would do of those options. But Johnson may say other wise. Your cam probably does not have enough spring pressure to make a difference in lifter life on a ST. But the 21120PR won’t be much different and easier to set. Neither one has pin oiling as far as I know.

The Topline Hylift Johnson A- 2375SE is also USA made, and at the moment, they are the only USA made HR lifter for a Pontiac with pin oiling. In their testing the short travel lifter had up to 70% shorter life. So they do not offer a short travel. Instead they offer a “S” slow bleed. The down side is if the valve terrain has any sort of bad harmonics the lifter follows it and quickly looses control of the valves. If you know what you’re doing, like Jone’s 327, you can rev that lifter very very high. On a Pontiac with a cam like yours, with a typical dual spring they more or less clock out at just past 6000. You can over spring them, but then the valving can’t compensate and they still clock out at the nearly same RPM point. You can overcome those things with stuff like beehive springs and setting spring up close to coil bind. Your cam won’t make great power past 6K anyway. For a long life cruising lifter this lifter it is hard to beat with a rev limiter ceiling. . The tolerance are tight a generally needs 10w30 oil.

[Torquewar]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Are the Howards lifters any good? Nobody has mentioned them so I'm wondering if that just because there no good.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-91466

Yup been using Howard’s since 2018 with a bunch of street and track abuse .No noise . Cam is a little more aggressive than OF . Seat 160/380… shift at 6 k

[chuckies76ta]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Hi Charles, yep those are definetly short travels Johnson’s. I need to do some research and see what the difference is between the 20 and the 60. . With yours having worked good to 80k miles though, I’d say they deserve a second look. I know of a couple guys that are running Johnson ST’s and are working well. I can easily be out of the flow of information when it comes to short travel on these engines because I have not been using them. Hylift Johnson’s engineering stance has been short travel are up to 70% shorter life from their testing. The general consensus over all is short travels are not expected to last as long. Morel ST’s have been hit and miss on longevity. Maybe Johnson has the ST ‘s figured out.

80K miles is a good run. What is the rest of the cam?

I know of other evolutions noise has been mixed on some other platforms running heavier springs. One of the guys on here had the axles slide out off a pair of Johnson’s last year. There is good reason for confusion with HR lifters.

The engine is a stroked 400 block. 4.25 crank with KRE d-port heads. The cam is Old Faithful from Dave at SD. I believe the springs are Crane 99893 from back in the day. Probably 140 seat/ 380 open. The guy has the engine in a 1970 GTO. He may even have more miles on it than what I posted. Were in Klms up here. I know he just had a build done as the Carb stud fell into one of the cylinders, but he's still running the same Johnson lifters. I believe he's running Amsoil 10w-40 oil. Guy at Johnson told me no heavier than 40 weight. I also advised him to set the lash precisely at .030 with a dial indicator.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Jay S

It’s no problem. I enjoy cams and valve terrain stuff. Johnson, Taylor, MI and Topline Hylift Johnson, in Muskegon MI, are 2 different companies. Both are spin offs from the original Johnson company that went bankrupt years ago and both claim to be the original Johnson.

Your cam does not have a lot of lobe lift, the oil band position is not going to be a factor on either option.

Johnson, in Taylor Michigan, is USA made and make the 21120PR and the ST21120PR, they also make a full travel lifter for stock applications. it’s part number is just 21120. The ST2112OPR is as close and you can get to acting like a mechanical lifter. The limited travel 2112OPR are a little bit of a compromise, and are what I would do of those options. But Johnson may say other wise. Your cam probably does not have enough spring pressure to make a difference in lifter life on a ST. But the 21120PR won’t be much different and easier to set. Neither one has pin oiling as far as I know.

The Topline Hylift Johnson A- 2375SE is also USA made, and at the moment, they are the only USA made HR lifter for a Pontiac with pin oiling. In their testing the short travel lifter had up to 70% shorter life. So they do not offer a short travel. Instead they offer a “S” slow bleed. The down side is if the valve terrain has any sort of bad harmonics the lifter follows it and quickly looses control of the valves. If you know what you’re doing, like Jone’s 327, you can rev that lifter very very high. On a Pontiac with a cam like yours, with a typical dual spring they more or less clock out at just past 6000. You can over spring them, but then the valving can’t compensate and they still clock out at the nearly same RPM point. You can overcome those things with stuff like beehive springs and setting spring up close to coil bind. Your cam won’t make great power past 6K anyway. For a long life cruising lifter this lifter it is hard to beat with a rev limiter ceiling. . The tolerance are tight a generally needs 10w30 oil.

Ok looks like that I may have to go with one of the first 2 you mentioned because I don't have dual springs and my engine uses 20/50 weight. So, the JLI-2112OPR-16 says it has .093 travel, JLI-ST2112OPR-16 says it has .058 of travel. so, does this mean the JLI-2112OPR-16 will last longer because of its longer travel? I'm assuming the 16 HLJ-2347 is the hy-lift without pin oiling?

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Ok looks like that I may have to go with one of the first 2 you mentioned because I don't have dual springs and my engine uses 20/50 weight. So, the JLI-2112OPR-16 says it has .093 travel, JLI-ST2112OPR-16 says it has .058 of travel. so, does this mean the JLI-2112OPR-16 will last longer because of its longer travel? I'm assuming the 16 HLJ-2347 is the hy-lift without pin oiling?

The 2347 HLJ does not have pin oil and has faster and wider variations in bleed rates.

With this setup so don’t think there will be much difference in life between the ST2112OPR or the 2112OPR. The 2112OPR will be more forgiving to set the proload.

The 21120PR is likely the better choice for thicker oil of those options. I think the Johnson in general has a little better flowing check valve assembly than most the competition. If it end up having extra valve terrain noise the first thing to would do is try a thinner oil.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by scott70

I went with the evo’s cause what I was hearing was people liked them. You think that lifter is hit or miss?

I don't know Scott. I wanted to try them in my own engine because I heard the same thing you did. Didnt work out for me as I have one that bleeds down and can't pinpoint it easily I just wanted to try before I used them in someone else's engine. Guess I'm one of the lucky few that got a bad one.
So rather than go through however many intake removals replacing cartridges Ive elected to take it as a loss and shelve the units for some Johnson's. What I should have used from the start as it's been my go to lifters for many years. That's what I get for leaving my comfort zone lol

[scott70]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I don't know Scott. I wanted to try them in my own engine because I heard the same thing you did. Didnt work out for me as I have one that bleeds down and can't pinpoint it easily I just wanted to try before I used them in someone else's engine. Guess I'm one of the lucky few that got a bad one.
So rather than go through however many intake removals replacing cartridges Ive elected to take it as a loss and shelve the units for some Johnson's. What I should have used from the start as it's been my go to lifters for many years. That's what I get for leaving my comfort zone lol

Did you clean them before installing? I’m going to point out to my engine guys to please do that.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by scott70

Did you clean them before installing? I’m going to point out to my engine guys to please do that.

Depends on what your definition of cleaning is.

The instructions are very specific that you only do a gentle wash of the outside of the lifter. They don't want them taken apart and they don't want aggressive cleaning around the wheel as they have their own lubricant packed into the bearings that they want there during initial start. They did say soaking in break in oil for at least 2 hours was acceptable and preferred.

So that's what I did, a gentle outside wash, don't blow with compressed air. let air dry and then soaked for a few hours in brad penn 10-30 break in oil.

This is how I've treated every hydraulic roller lifter without issue. I have always taken the Johnsons or Hylift Johnsons, gave them a gentle bath and soak in break in oil. Install and go.

To add, I've changed the oil 4 times now in this engine. Initial run and tuning, then a short 30 mile drive and dropped the break in oil. refilled with more break in oil and drove roughly 500-ish miles and changed oil again to some ZR1. Drove another 800 miles and changed oil again this time with some Amsoil that is going to stay in the engine. So far that oil has about another 1300 miles on it I've cut the filter every time and other than the initial run in where I expect to see some metallic from break in, the filters have been very clean and oil looks good. Not using any oil and running really nice, but still a lifter bleeding down after it sits a few hours. The sewing machine noise I can live with even though it's louder than my solid flat tappet lifter engine LOL. But because of the bleed down issue I'm just swapping them out for Johnsons.