[performerrpm]

i hate to see any old car too far gone to save...and i guess this falls in the grey area....but to call it a starter kit and keep your mouth shut if you dont like it seems kinda crazy to me.


here i been trynna figure out how to just get a replacement trim tag for my lemans and not come off criminal

[Mr. G]

Listed by John D. Lorean? That makes you wonder.

[Jack Ferris]

Another facebook parts chucker. Unfortunately what he's doing is legal and some unknown to the situation buyer will to end up with a 2 piece Trans Am that started life as a 76 base Firebird.

[JLMounce]

This is becoming more common. The seller has saved what the government legally considers the heart of the car. It's the main structure housing the vin and cowl tags and identifies it as such. From there you purchase a brand new shell and graft the heart into that shell. You get 98% of a brand new car that is governed by the laws and regulations relating to it's original manufacture date.

Companies like Revology use this method, along with detailed documentation to create brand new Mustangs without having to worry about EPA and NHTSA regulations regarding being a modern constructor.

20 years ago, that Special Edition couldn't really be revived if it was so far gone except for that firewall and cowl structure. Maybe somebody could put one back together, but it would have likely been very cost prohibitive. Now that Special Edition has a chance at a new life.

I've never heard this process being sold as a "starter kit" but I suppose there's some truth in that. I don't see that that the seller is mis-advertising this as some sort of complete car, so I don't personally see a problem with it and I think considering it has the original motor and trans, the price is probably in the ballpark.

[SRGN]

Retags have been happening for 30+ years in the hobby, started around the late 80s when people started paying good money for cars with the right equipment. The early stuff crossed a few lines in legality, but it has sadly become more commonplace as the builders know the laws and how to ride the edge of the line. I'm not a numbers guy, so you will never see me drop big money on a car because it was built with a specific combo. I'd rather buy a car for what it has and not worry about if it was born that way. I've passed on a few genuine "numbers" cars because I knew they wouldn't stay that way under my ownership. I like knowing that someone that wants to bring back a legit car has genuine options, the hobby will die if there's no "hidden treasures" out there. I'm still contemplating a 68 Nova SS with born-with driveline locally, if I pick it up, I'll probably do some things to get it running well and just make a couple dollars. There's a shortage of decent cars that aren't in need of significant work to be roadworthy. 6 cylinder and base cars used to be plentiful, but now even those are getting scarce. I'm grateful that I've owned some of the cars I have over the years, I couldn't justify spending the money today that it would take to buy them now.

[JLMounce]

This wouldn't really be a retag, and maybe that's really where this person selling the cowl should do a better job on the listing. Retagging may have been harder to detect in the past, but it is now and was then highly illegal.

That's why this guy is selling that whole structure, because that's what the government views as the car itself. The sheet metal around it doesn't matter so much as long as the vin tag is in tact with the cowl tag and the firewall has it's proper vin stampings in place. The add should probably read that this is a re-shell starter which would likely cut down on the comments he's trying to avoid.

The person buying that would either need a donor car for it's body, or you buy a brand new shell from somebody like Real Deal Steel and graft in the complete firewall and cowl. Easier said than done since that's a significant structural piece, but certainly possible. In that situation you still have a numbers car with the added drivetrain components and you're on the correct side of the law as well.

[72projectbird]

I dont have any issue with it. It's not any different than replacing every panel on a car, including frame rails, inner roof structures, and every part of the cowl.

[GTOnly70]

Cripes, by the time you've poured tens of thousands in creating a Franken-mobile, it would be much easier and cheaper just to buy a complete, genuine car in the first place.

[SRGN]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

This wouldn't really be a retag, and maybe that's really where this person selling the cowl should do a better job on the listing. Retagging may have been harder to detect in the past, but it is now and was then highly illegal.

That's why this guy is selling that whole structure, because that's what the government views as the car itself. The sheet metal around it doesn't matter so much as long as the vin tag is in tact with the cowl tag and the firewall has it's proper vin stampings in place. The add should probably read that this is a re-shell starter which would likely cut down on the comments he's trying to avoid.

The person buying that would either need a donor car for it's body, or you buy a brand new shell from somebody like Real Deal Steel and graft in the complete firewall and cowl. Easier said than done since that's a significant structural piece, but certainly possible. In that situation you still have a numbers car with the added drivetrain components and you're on the correct side of the law as well.

I find first gen f bodies often with the tag swapped and the hidden VIN isn't even close. For a higher end car, the firewall section with the VIN stamping is sometimes cut and sectioned into another body. I agree, it's illegal, but very few agencies have the knowledge and resources to identify the high quality swaps. The dynacorn bodies made it seem to some that they just had to drill out and replace the rivets on the VIN tag and they were good to go. The car that donated the VIN and cowl tag is often sold with the hidden VIN intact, now there's 2 cars that have the number in circulation in different forms. Especially when the buyer of the tagless body has an inspection done to try to get it titled. This has resulted in several arrests and civil suits, it's not generally released to the public as it would make the criminals more educated in how not to get caught.

[dataway]

When I was getting a home-made trailer inspected at a NY State Police facility to get a VIN I saw that they had a vintage Corvette half disassembled in their garage.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by SRGN

I find first gen f bodies often with the tag swapped and the hidden VIN isn't even close. For a higher end car, the firewall section with the VIN stamping is sometimes cut and sectioned into another body. I agree, it's illegal, but very few agencies have the knowledge and resources to identify the high quality swaps. The dynacorn bodies made it seem to some that they just had to drill out and replace the rivets on the VIN tag and they were good to go. The car that donated the VIN and cowl tag is often sold with the hidden VIN intact, now there's 2 cars that have the number in circulation in different forms. Especially when the buyer of the tagless body has an inspection done to try to get it titled. This has resulted in several arrests and civil suits, it's not generally released to the public as it would make the criminals more educated in how not to get caught.

Yeah they happen and people do get caught. There's a lot of documentation that goes in to a proper re-shell. Otherwise, as the post above calims, you end up with a half disassembled car.

I'm not 100% familiar with the vin stampings on a 2nd gen, but to do this legally on the first gen, you need the upper cowl section around the VIN tag, up to about the a piller and including the upper firewall to the passenger side inner fender cowl. There is a vin stamping on the upper firewall near the middle of the car and another vin stamping on the inner fender cowl, near the air inlet for the heat blower.

Once those items are grafted in to the new shell and you've documented this well, the car should legally pass any vin inspection.

[burd]

Exactly why I won’t go on facepuke, those people who run a “forum” for free.