[Lmaley]

Hello everyone,

Extremely new member (as in just registered). I am getting on here to understand the value of some beautiful firebird things, that are about to get royally disturbed as my parents move for the first time in about 30 years.

Long story short, my Dad, a Pontiac enthusiast ever since his young age in Detroit, had grown up and owned countless firebirds. 18 years ago, he purchased a 1969 Pontiac Trans Am clone convertible that had been poorly put together by some guy. My dad started this massive project by tearing the entire car apart completely and doing massive amounts of body work. Unfortunately not long after life got in the way and the firebird sits there on a rotisserie in our garage. Like I said, they are moving, Dad is getting older. His goal was to fully restore the car into a beautiful TA clone and sell it. This would fund his own personal Firebird build that he has wanted since he had to get rid of his old ones.

I am trying to understand the value of some of these things, specifically the 400 Ram Air III and the Muncie 4 speed m21. I know inherently these are valuable to the right person and I couldn’t find many reliable things to help understand value of them currently. Here’s where it gets interesting though, the V8 was bought at an estate sale of a man who had multiple firebirds in his garage and mountains of parts years ago. The gentleman had this V8 sitting in a crate, and the wife only knew that it had just come back from an engine shop getting rebuilt but didn’t know where the paperwork went. So the engine is rebuilt (without receipts) but my dad had partially stripped it and he agreed it looked like a full rebuild. The Muncie shifts like butter, I would have to ask for more details on where that’s from or its history.

So my fine fellow enthusiasts, can you help me understand what the value of these things are? I only overshare on the story because as a new member, and just randomly asking what these things are worth show little trust signals. I’m just trying to help my dad make his dream Pontiac come to life, and also this is the ideal time to get some of the storage cleared out as they begin to work on moving. Thanks in advance everyone!

[The Champ]

The M21 is a close ratio Muncie, but not a Rock Crusher. That would be the M22. Still, it's a Muncie so it has value.

As to the RA III, a mystery rebuild done years ago will limit the desirability. Value would increase if decode the motor to know what it originally came in (code on front passenger side will tell you if it's a GTO/Firebird or other car) and the date code (under the distributor). If you find a person who has a car that would be correct for that motor, they will pay more for it.

I was lucky enough to find a numbers matching, properly date coded complete running engine for my '64 GTO 30+ years ago and I paid good money for it. 5 years ago I sold it to another '64 GTO owner for what I paid for it after driving it for 20 years.

Why did I take the #'s matching one out? I decided after 20 years that I wanted more power and built a 30 over 455. I kept the 389 for 8 years, in case I ever wanted to put it back in, but ended up selling it as that was an project i no longer had interest in.

[unruhjonny]

value would be highly dependent on casting numbers, and stamped numbers - and matching up those parts with the right buyer.

Engine:

Over time I have seen all kinds of 69/40 400's referred to as RAIII, when that was really just used on a handful of (stamped) engine codes, and made up by a combination of parts.

Factory RAIII performance can be replicated with out too much effort, but a real RAIII engines needs to have all the correct parts to actually have the elite status as a Ram Air III engine.

If it's an original assembly line block, odds are you would get the most from someone looking for a correct block for their car which was assembled in the same plant as your block would have been stamped at.

Then there's SR blocks to further muddy the waters.

Transmission:

Forgetting the fact that GM re-used RPO codes from which these muncie's are referred as, this is the original application of the code, vs the gear set:
M20 = Muncie four speed; wide ratio (two ratios used)
M21 = Muncie four speed; close ratio
M22 = Muncie four speed; close ratio, special application/special order

Over time, people have started to use the "rock crusher" moniker more or less for all Muncie four speeds, but the nick-name originally came from the gear whine associated with the specific M22 gear set.

The Muncie four speeds came in three basic configurations:
7/8" countershaft & 27 spline (small/TH350) output
1" countershaft & 27 spline (small/TH350) output
1" countershaft & 32 spline (large/TH400) output

There are further breakdowns, but that's as simple as I can make it for you.

I don't say any of this to give you grief, but rather lend to some clarity for you.

If you can share more information, I am sure someone here can help you out - you never know, maybe there's a buyer lurking on these forums

[unruhjonny]

small correction - a typo noticed a day later (so I cannot edit it);

... I have seen all kinds of 69/40 400's referred to as RAIII ...

should have read as:

... I have seen all kinds of 69/70 400's referred to as RAIII ...