[Sun Tuned]

All I can say is both pumps came from same place. Both pumps had same issues exactly. Maybe I got 2 bum pumps?? Don’t know, but for a “ blueprinted pump” I’m not convinced.

I forgot to mention it but,Steve made me remember it. If you want a treat, surface those bottom plates on a thick piece of glass and some 220 wet or dry and see the halo you end up with.

Both of these were pretty damn ridiculous as far as I’m concerned.

I will say this both are doing what they should now, but if I’d have just went ahead and spent the time in the first place….

Then I coulda just bought standard pumps instead, because I sure as hell ended up doing the work plus anyhow.

FWIW.

Steve youre probably right , I bet those seats are ground.

[Sun Tuned]

Plus I’ve heard several members here on various posts make mention of “new engine….oil pressure at idle seems low.” Like theyre talking under 15lbs

Makes you wonder.

I certainly don’t fault butler, I love them to death. Obviously they can’t check every single pump they get. So no harm no foul there. I just wonder if they got a batch that flew under the radar and didn’t know it.

I just fixed it and carried on.,the pump ain’t gonna fix itself.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by Sun Tuned

I put pump in a vise and did Cliffs checkball mod ,only it felt like a really big Qjet.

Seriously I whacked it about 4-5 times with a pretty good size punch and a hammer until it held a column of liquid.

I almost thought I was gonna have to get serious with it and if that didn’t work I had planned to silver braze a different ball on a rod and break out some valve lapping compound and lap the seat. But that didn’t have to get done.

You know the guys have been talking about using a smaller ball…. I may just try that on the next one.

I’ve always blueprinted my own pumps. But hell, for 235.00 you’d think you could get one that was done. Not me.
I about got sick when we pulled that engine and I pulled that pump cover and put a depth micrometer on it. They never touched that one anyway. Maybe it got missed.
Pump works beautifully now though.

The guy who owned the car wasn’t mad at all about it.oretty goid bit of work to do it again but hey, it worked out.

I have lapped that ball seat as you described with a stick brazed to a ball. Lapped with 280 grit Clover compound. Takes a little time but that iron is pretty soft so not too bad. It's a real shame virtually everything you buy is total crap. It 's absolutely everything, not limited to Pontiac engine parts. I have had the best bang for the buck just buying a regular M54 DS. Or an F54 if you want an 80 lb. pump. Then I add a thick bottom plate and go through it before use. The Nightmare Performance plate is nice and thick.

[steve25]

Tight tolerances on set up when holding a casting to apply a machining operation can make or break an items performance like an oil pump.

Machine a pump check ball seat by a tool that can only be piloted on one takes great precision

[chiphead]

Originally Posted by Sun Tuned

Both these guys were in a bit of a hurry, so I got them to order already blueprinted oil pumps from Butler. Now as I understand this these are Schuman pumps? In other words they come to butler already supposed to be fixed and ready to go. 235.00 each I think they were. And they were clean and looked the part anyhow.

There have been several guys on the pontiac FB groups recently complaining about low idle oil pressure in new motors. I ask where they got the pump and if they took it apart and blueprinted it. The answer every time is " I got it from Butler so I assumed it was good."

A M54DS on Summit is $91 as of today. Somebody is making bank on these "boutique" pumps that still have the same issues as a M54DS.

[Sun Tuned]

I agree about that.

Thing is, in both cases, both put out 65 lbs + when running a drill priming tool. Mine just happens to be a stock points distributor, driven by a Milwaukee electric 1/2” drill.
So likely 350 rpm.

The leaking checkball was the tell tale for me. When hot and the oil thins out ,it bleeds off just enough to have a controlled leak abd oil pressure at idle goes in the you know where.

Now the whole time….i gotta think, surely folks haven’t been using these out of the box, they have to be doing the required extra and not seeing ussue. That’s what happened on the 2 I redid, run fine now with no issue.

So if they say they using em in engines out of the box, either someone not paying attention or I’m the only idiot that got not one but TWO in a row that were culls.

Bottom line : check your stuff period. Save yourself a bunch of extra work.

[Dragncar]

I have always blue printed my own pumps. Never had a issue.
Paying lots of attention to your oiling system pays off. Do all the little tricks. Make sure everything is in your favor.
Its too expensive and a giant pain not too.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Just swap to 20w50 on your next oil change. Your issues will go away.

My 455 was originally built w .003/.0035” main/rod clearances and acted like tours at idle. I switched to 20w50 and it improved the idle oil pressure by around 5psi. I drove the car really hard w a 4:56 gear in it for 15 years, Which I swapped later to 3:55’s.

I redid the motor with flat-top pistons and 6x heads and tightened up the clearances with a crank cut & polish and rod resize at that time. I installed a Butler blueprinted pump and have around 30 psi at idle and 65 psi at cruise now.

[scott70]

I bought one of those butler blueprint 60-70 pumps and had it installed on my latest build. I put the little washer in for the 70 psi. Looking at video of the dyno run hot idle was around 19 psi , 3500 rpm’s was average 60 and 5500 was around 70 psi . Bearing clearances was around .0028 for rods and mains. 15-40 oil. Installing the engine in my car currently and should have it running this week,,, we’ll see how the oil psi shows up on my gauges. I wish I had known about these pumps,, I would have had the engine shop double check it. I also installed one of those nitemare oil pump shafts.

[steve25]

Open your wallet some and add a bottle of Oil Extreme with your next oil change and then don’t fret in the least about having only 10 psi or so of hot oil pressure.

A tad cheaper way to go is to run 10w40 with a bottle of Lucus Engine oil supplement.

[mgarblik]

Allot of our old engines specified 10W-40 oil for general use. Case in point is my SD-455 engine. Has the stock 80 PSI pump. 70 degree ambient start up, pegs the oil pressure gauge, over 100 PSI at fast idle. Once fully warmed up with an estimated oil temperature of 200 degrees F, idle oil pressure is 15-18 PSI @ 650-700 RPM in drive. I personally think that's fine as it jumps up immediately when leaving a stop sign as RPM's increase. Hot cruise @ 2800 RPM, around 60 PSI. This is with Valvoline 10W-30 VR1. If they made 10W-40 version, I would probably use it. But they don't. For a slight boost in hot oil pressure a 10W-40, 10W-50, 20W-50 might raise the pressure a little as stated by others. Personally, I feel having a motor oil with proper additive package for flat tappet cams, (high Zinc), is more important than idle oil pressure. I realize it can be a little scary when you look over at the oil pressure gauge at a stop light and your only a few needle widths above zero, it may cause some concern. Automatic transmission cars with AC running on a hot day in drive @ 500-550 RPM, may be below 10 PSI. That is not abnormal with a camshaft driven oil pump. Most modern engines use a crankshaft driven oil pump which tends to make more hot oil pressure at low engine speeds due to faster pump speed. Keep that in mind.

[chiphead]

My issue with modifying the oil is that you're crutching the pressure loss with oil viscosity. Modern thinner ring packs work best with thinner oils, like 0-20 to 10-40 if you consider the extremes each way. So if you build a high output motor with modern parts and clearances, the rings may have oil control issues when going to thick oils just to maintain idle pressures.

I've gone from 10-30 to 10-40 to maintain idle oil pressures in my current 400. But it was built 30 years ago by a PO and just needs a little help in that dept. The Lucas HR oil is working well with the HFT cam and maintains 20 PSI at 850 heat soaked. About 45 PSI at 2600 RPM hot. Nearly 60 near 5700 redline. I do get the "relief ball dance" at higher RPMs, so it's gotta be a worn stock 60 PSI pump.

It seems the better approach on new builds is to fine tune the oil pump, as any losses there are going to show up at low RPM when hot.

I posted a few years ago about a Melling 10540 select pump. It was 150 bucks and no better than the M54DS. I had to do all the voodoo to straighten it out.

[steve25]

Agreed with the above post 31 fully.

With any motor and especially a street motor that is fully warmed up ( like after 5 to 7 miles of around town driving ) if you do not have 35 to 40 psi showing up by 2400 rpm I would be concerned.

And as stated above it needs to zoom right up to that pressure range, not slide up slowly.