[sandmanjoe]

How does a cowl tag get bent?

somebody tried to get some paint behind it,, and it had por15 all over it anyway, so i got a repro one, now it will be nice and shinny.

the gto car is cut up in the back yard, its a pile of rust heading to the scrap yard, even the greatest American hero could not put that back together.,, i cant really tell you how it started out, if you want percentages i would have to do alot of thinking, 8 years ago i bought a lemans all rusted, awhile ago i got a real messed up gto shell/frame, got some tempest parts on there, i think i have gto doors from a hardtop, tempest posts from a hardtop cut down to conv posts,,, one fender is from a lemans and the other is unknown, i could find out for you, as the guy i got it from is on the boards, the rear panels are going to be py repro along with the hood, if py ever gets it for me, its been backordered for about 3months now lol . the frame is 75%lemans and 25% GTO, It has a GTO trunk lid, the inside will be all py repro for the most part, the gauges are gto and tempest. the windshield channel is opg repro-lemans-gto. lol

[jeffhhs76]

Holy Crap ... It's FrankenPontiac!!!!!!!!!

[md1twal3]

The message that keeps ringing through to me is the DNA (what makes the car what it is) are the options and parts that have numbers specific to the VIN are what determine what the car really is, right? That's the frame, the firewall (if the VIN is stamped on it), the tags and the driveline (if you are fortunate enough to still own them with your "project".

99% of the rest of "the sum of parts" of a given vehicle are not model (GTO, Lemans, Tempest, etc) specific, but platform (A-body, B-body, X-body, ect) specific, correct?

The basis for me being ok with a "body swap" type of restoration (within the law...what ever that really is) is that you are swapping what are actually universal parts for a platform. You will use a tempest spindle for a GTO restoration (or visa-versa), or a fender or door or decklid or what ever...why isn't it ok to use the same universal sheetmetal pieces that are welded together to create a unit called a body?

I am with Dan...you really can't have it both ways. A majority of a GTO isn't only GTO parts, they are universally used and sold for other models. THESE parts DO NOT constitute whether a car is one model or another, the VIN and that has the VIN number on it really do.

Would I be mad to find out that my $40K car was rebodied? Yes, if it was represented as original and not restored. That is the difference.

Restored means a lot to different people, but those that only think restored is taking a rusty hulk and welding in sheet metal around it and rebodying is fraud really have a double standard.

The bottom line...I feel that both should be viewed as an acceptible restoration.

Misrepresentation...that is a lot different and can happen with any car, restored, cloned or original condition. This should not be a primary arguement for why a rebody is not acceptible.

Ethics, again...I don't get that arguement. I really do want to understand where ethics enters in because how I see it, it doesn't. The level of pride in ones restoration for a rebody vs. welding up a rusted hulk...that makes more sense to me.

I admit, I take a lot more pride in taking something old and rebuilding it to new like condition than I do if I just replace it (a.k.a. "take the easy way out as some have called this")

Sometimes though, rebuilding it is not a practical option. Does that mean the car should be crushed? Nope, you look at other more practical alternatives that work for you, because after all, most of the components that are the sum of a vehicle are only car parts, not GTO or Lemans or Ventura or Corvette or whatever specific.

['ol Pinion head]

A problem that has existed since I first got into GTO's in the mid 80's is that the turn & burn crowd, try & rationalize everything to cut a corner... & swapping VIN tags is mighty BIG corner to cut.

Personally have no problem using quality donor sheetmetal to propperly restore a car. An entire body shell swap, ie, a tag swap is another thing!!! Once the original cowl is gone, the car is gone. Doesn't matter if it had a confidential in it or not! Have shared this view with many longtime Pontiac restorers, for a very long time & it's kept us all on the up & up & out of a lot of trouble. Doesn't matter today what year it is, or that really desirable musclecar/supercar projects are hard to find, ethics & quality workmanship are very important in the restoration process.

Not into ethical restoration work, Diednthecorn is selling replica body shells for '69 Camaro's... dozens of companys make Cobra kit cars, many other makes of cars out there w/o documentation services like PHS & Sloan Museum. Not happy cause you can't fraudulently cut that corner, please leave the Pontiac hobby, you won't be missed!

[jeffhhs76]

Originally Posted by md1twal3

The message that keeps ringing through to me is the DNA (what makes the car what it is) are the options and parts that have numbers specific to the VIN are what determine what the car really is, right? That's the frame, the firewall (if the VIN is stamped on it), the tags and the driveline (if you are fortunate enough to still own them with your "project".

99% of the rest of "the sum of parts" of a given vehicle are not model (GTO, Lemans, Tempest, etc) specific, but platform (A-body, B-body, X-body, ect) specific, correct?

The basis for me being ok with a "body swap" type of restoration (within the law...what ever that really is) is that you are swapping what are actually universal parts for a platform. You will use a tempest spindle for a GTO restoration (or visa-versa), or a fender or door or decklid or what ever...why isn't it ok to use the same universal sheetmetal pieces that are welded together to create a unit called a body?

I am with Dan...you really can't have it both ways. A majority of a GTO isn't only GTO parts, they are universally used and sold for other models. THESE parts DO NOT constitute whether a car is one model or another, the VIN and that has the VIN number on it really do.

Would I be mad to find out that my $40K car was rebodied? Yes, if it was represented as original and not restored. That is the difference.

Restored means a lot to different people, but those that only think restored is taking a rusty hulk and welding in sheet metal around it and rebodying is fraud really have a double standard.

The bottom line...I feel that both should be viewed as an acceptible restoration.

Misrepresentation...that is a lot different and can happen with any car, restored, cloned or original condition. This should not be a primary arguement for why a rebody is not acceptible.

Ethics, again...I don't get that arguement. I really do want to understand where ethics enters in because how I see it, it doesn't. The level of pride in ones restoration for a rebody vs. welding up a rusted hulk...that makes more sense to me.

I admit, I take a lot more pride in taking something old and rebuilding it to new like condition than I do if I just replace it (a.k.a. "take the easy way out as some have called this")

Sometimes though, rebuilding it is not a practical option. Does that mean the car should be crushed? Nope, you look at other more practical alternatives that work for you, because after all, most of the components that are the sum of a vehicle are only car parts, not GTO or Lemans or Ventura or Corvette or whatever specific.

My ONLY problem with this entire thread is ethics and nothing else..And it has nothing to do with the person who pours his blood,sweat and tears into a car to rebuild it into absolute perfection taking whatever measures are necessary to do so (With the exeption of VIN Fraud). I'm all for that...It has to do with what happens with cars that have had the VIN changed, cowl tags modified to add options etc... and what happens after that car changes hands....THATS the ethics problem I have. I personally know someone that did exactly what Sandman has done regarding his frame on a 1970 Chevelle. His frame was shot so he got himself another frame, cut the back of of both frames and welded the part of the frame with his VIN stamped on it to the new frame. Then cut up and scrapped the junk frame. I DON'T have a problem with that. Lets face it, these cars are old, they're going to need refurbishing!!

I have a problem with 2 cars ending up with the same VIN info popping up in the future because of illegal ID tactics. You bring up a great point in "what makes a car what it is".. I believe that ANY part of the car that has a unique VIN identification stamped on it should be with the car or at least the majority of those parts. That being said, I don't include drivetrain components in that. Hey its great to have a numbers matching engine but the fact is this can't always be the case. The next best thing is having a date coded correct engine for that year car. But thats even hard to put together. So let me ask this, is a 1966 GTO with a 1969 GTO engine in it not a GTO??? Or as I stated before, is a 1969 Judge that has had its engine replaced after 1 year with a service replacement engine from Pontiac no longer a Judge? Or even a GTO for that matter??

IMO, of course they are..I believe the drivetrain carries less weight than everything else in the car PLUS a non correct engine is easier to spot for the buyer. But now you have people out there who are re-stamping engine blocks too so where does it all end.

As you stated, the "platform specific" or "universal" are not an issue. I am in full agreement with you in regards to the body swap resto. I do have a problem with selling a body swap resto though even if it has been advertised as a clone. Why? simply because once the vehicle changes hands it WILL eventually become an authentic car..If someone in NY buys a GTO re-creation for $10,000 from someone in Tenn. You can bet the ranch on that car being sold as a GTO down the road. I'm sorry but $$ speaks volumes and if the opportunity to cash in on something arises then people will jump on it. That's what a capitalist society is based on!! Let the buyer beware!!!

[jeffhhs76]

Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head

A problem that has existed since I first got into GTO's in the mid 80's is that the turn & burn crowd, try & rationalize everything to cut a corner... & swapping VIN tags is mighty BIG corner to cut.

Personally have no problem using quality donor sheetmetal to propperly restore a car. An entire body shell swap, ie, a tag swap is another thing!!! Once the original cowl is gone, the car is gone. Doesn't matter if it had a confidential in it or not! Have shared this view with many longtime Pontiac restorers, for a very long time & it's kept us all on the up & up & out of a lot of trouble. Doesn't matter today what year it is, or that really desirable musclecar/supercar projects are hard to find, ethics & quality workmanship are very important in the restoration process.

Not into ethical restoration work, Diednthecorn is selling replica body shells for '69 Camaro's... dozens of companys make Cobra kit cars, many other makes of cars out there w/o documentation services like PHS & Sloan Museum. Not happy cause you can't fraudulently cut that corner, please leave the Pontiac hobby, you won't be missed!

What he said............

[dancolkate]

This thread just get's better with age.

If you don't share my ideals, then find another hobby...HAHAHAHAHA

I can't imagine the pychological damage we'll endure by "not being missed". Oh NOOOOOOOO, where are my meds.....
Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaha

[jeffhhs76]

Listen...we're all adults here... Sometimes we have to agree to disagree. I may not share in your opinion on what you believe is right and ethical but that doesn't mean we can't get along.. How you handle your hobby is your business and I'll do it my way. So long as I don't buy a GTO from you with a LeMans body and chassis we're OK... I respect your opinion. I won't hold it against you if you don't do things the way I would...It's cool... I got interested in this thread because of the possibility that there could be more than one car out there with the same VIN number which to me is flat out wrong...thats all..Just expressing my opinion..

[md1twal3]

Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head

A problem that has existed since I first got into GTO's in the mid 80's is that the turn & burn crowd, try & rationalize everything to cut a corner... & swapping VIN tags is mighty BIG corner to cut.

Personally have no problem using quality donor sheetmetal to propperly restore a car. An entire body shell swap, ie, a tag swap is another thing!!! Once the original cowl is gone, the car is gone. Doesn't matter if it had a confidential in it or not! Have shared this view with many longtime Pontiac restorers, for a very long time & it's kept us all on the up & up & out of a lot of trouble. Doesn't matter today what year it is, or that really desirable musclecar/supercar projects are hard to find, ethics & quality workmanship are very important in the restoration process.

Not into ethical restoration work, Diednthecorn is selling replica body shells for '69 Camaro's... dozens of companys make Cobra kit cars, many other makes of cars out there w/o documentation services like PHS & Sloan Museum. Not happy cause you can't fraudulently cut that corner, please leave the Pontiac hobby, you won't be missed!

Hey there OPH...how you been? Haven't seen much of you lately. Thanks for chiming in, you always add interest to any conversation that you take part in.0

I agree with all you say except you and your "log time Pontiac restorers" idea of once a cowl is gone, the car is gone. If this is the standard that should be driving restoration vs. junking, why did GM offer these as replacement panels?

In fact, I just pulled out my GM parts manuals from 1981 for Cadillacs through 75 and in section 12.804, there is an entire section of part numbers for cowl panels and dashes. They are item 17 in the illustration.

My Pontiac parts manual from 1983 for Pontiacs through 1975 shows the dash panel available for every Pontiac in it.

If the factory dictated that these could be replaced by offering them for sale, why is it that you and your Pontiac restoration buddies have "set the standard" that a car is not restorable if it needs to be replaced? If you got into this in the early 80's, you could probably still even find these parts available.

Seems to me that there is an inaccurate standard in place and being supported by a number of members that goes against what the factory said could happen.


BTW...I agree about blatent tag swapping. If it is illegal, don't do it. It is a good way to keep out of trouble.

[dancolkate]

Ahhhhh, nothing like a vacation day and the forecast if for sun and 90 degrees.

Think I'll spend the day seeking out a new hobby...wait no-way!!!
You can find me in the NH and ME junkyards searching for....you guessed it....rust free cowl sections!!!!

Waaaaahhhhhhoooooooooooo

[md1twal3]

Originally Posted by md1twal3

Hey there OPH...how you been? Haven't seen much of you lately. Thanks for chiming in, you always add interest to any conversation that you take part in.0

I agree with all you say except you and your "log time Pontiac restorers" idea of once a cowl is gone, the car is gone. If this is the standard that should be driving restoration vs. junking, why did GM offer these as replacement panels?

In fact, I just pulled out my GM parts manuals from 1981 for Cadillacs through 75 and in section 12.804, there is an entire section of part numbers for cowl panels and dashes. They are item 17 in the illustration.

My Pontiac parts manual from 1983 for Pontiacs through 1975 shows the dash panel available for every Pontiac in it.

If the factory dictated that these could be replaced by offering them for sale, why is it that you and your Pontiac restoration buddies have "set the standard" that a car is not restorable if it needs to be replaced? If you got into this in the early 80's, you could probably still even find these parts available.

Seems to me that there is an inaccurate standard in place and being supported by a number of members that goes against what the factory said could happen.


BTW...I agree about blatent tag swapping. If it is illegal, don't do it. It is a good way to keep out of trouble.

I only hear crickets....OPH...are you lerking around somewhere? I am curious about your response to this...

[Steve Barcak]

I spent a lot of time reading all of this thread. Everyone has their own opinion. People are doing what they want regardless. I am fortunate enough to live in Az where we don't have to worry about saving or salvaging rust buckets unless we get them from somewhere else. Many of my GTOs I have had for decades.
I am just glad I do not have to consider doing this stuff to my cars. I don't know what I would do.

I really do not see anyone having the same vin as another. The only way that can happen is if someone is really tampering with vin tags ( not trim tags, that is different). If someone was doing that, I am confident they would be black listed so fast. People would, unquestionably, diligently report them to the authorities that it would not last long if at all.
I've known a couple of guys who were going to buy a body without a vin number and I talked them out of it. what would you do with it? You cannot get an authentic vin#. all you could maybe do is get a street rod type of vin and who want s that on their GTO or T/A?
There are guys around here who do vin swaps and they aren't too timid about telling you. GTOs, Formulas, T/As.
I have my own Pontiac yard with over 500 old Pontiacs. I do get requests from time to time for vin # tags. "I want a GTO conv vin tag". I laugh and say, "I am sure you do!". I don't sell or remove vin# tags. If they want it, they buy the whole car.

Steve Barcak www.pontiacheaven.org

[md1twal3]

I am definately jealous of you, Steve! Living in the rust belt blows! Good to see that you don't just sell tags to people but the whole works that they are attached to.

In regard to people buying a body without tags, I have never done it, but it could be used for parts, especially if it is sold without title, tags and with a bill of sale indicating parts only. On the flip side...I am sure others may simply slap tags on it from something that they have.

You are right, though...people will do what they want.

[mike nixon]

it seems to me that the views on this topic are set by where you live, in the rust belt where people fix cars or in the blessed areas where there's no salt and little rust.

as long as all the numbers are installed in the correct locations and the remains ae destroys it shouldn't be a big deal unless you've got a true survivor and are trying to make it even more valuable.

my thoughts and i think they're somewhere earlier in this novel also.

mike

[PonchoV8]

Four yrs ago on eBay, a red 69 GTO convertible was auctioned of for several thousands. It was in decent shape----except it was actually a 68 body. There were plenty of bidders and the car met reserve and the new owner with the car has lived happily ever after.

How did this happen? The bidders and buyer knew what the deal with the car was.

[6d7gto]

i can't believe i read the whole thing!
Q: what did the lemans say to the gto?
A: i am a PONTIAC! if you cut me, do i not rust?

sandmanjoe, you have quite a variety of parts in your car. one vital part not mentioned and i dare say the most important thing that goes into these cars is ourselves. parts is parts but people are unique. that uniqueness is expressed through our vehicles. who says doing things inside the box and coloring inside the lines can't be fun, too? tiny tim and i say, God bless us, everyone! yeah, even the ford and chevy guys (and gals). what? mopar? uh...i'll get back to you

[6d7gto]

ok,ok, God bless the mopar guys and gals, too.

[1971WARBIRD]

hi,i'm new to this site but not to pontiacs.i have magizines that go all the way back to the 60's.now what is scary about that is some very respected body men said they saw n problem with changing tags when rebodying rusted or wrecked cars and i remember at least one respected engine builder who said why not stamp the matching vin on the block when rebuilding it.no reason to detail it and lose points at a car show because the numbers didn't match.i wonder how many cars they changed over the years?

[LEE50]

I don't know what the big deal is about changing the VIN & ID tag. I mean body shops cut the windshield pillar posts & drill out the spot welds in the floor & move the whole doghouse from one car to another. They do it with new cars everyday. I'm not a body man, but it seems to me, drilling out 4 rivots & moving the VIN & ID tags to a unwrecked or rustfree car, is a whole lot easier than cutting the whole doghouse out & moving it to another car. Body shops and insurance companies do it with new cars all the time. So, why is everybody up in arms about it? What is the difference if some UAW worker did it on an assembly line 30-35 yrs ago or some restorer trying to save a rare old car? I mean, after all guys, it is just 4 rivots. The car is what the VIN & ID tags say it is. That's just my opinion. Me, I'm too old & too lazy to do either one, but I just thought I would throw my 2 cents in there.

[werdna5225]

I want to know where I can find where it tells what is legal and illegal to do with the vins and switching them on a car. I have a 1971 and 1972 GTO, the 72 body is too rusted to use and the 71 frame is too rusted to use so I am going to use the 72 frame with the 71 body. I have full ownership of the 72 but there is a lost title and no trim tag on the 71, the 71 was purchased as a parts car. Is it legal (I want facts not opinions) to switch the frames and bodies, and can I legally put the 72 vin and trim tag on the 71 body since the bodies are almost identical?