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Hesster1977 · 11:41 AM

Topic of the day is Ignition and the HEI Distributor. There are some HO Articles attached of course - this IS a HO Sticky Thread.

Some of us 'Oldsters remember messing with Points and Condenser style Distributors, and these worked well when maintained properly. Manufacturers phased out points and utilized electronic ignition systems by 1975.

Then came the HEI - a pretty darn good distributor.
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/su...-distributors/
"The HEI system was introduced in late 1974 on some GM cars, and was used across the entire GM product line in 1975. This new ignition had a significantly higher output and longer spark duration, assisting GM meet the ever tightening emission standards. It was used on all GM vehicles, at least in the North American market, from 1975 through the mid-1980s."

Anyone with a performance car knows that you can have all the engine HP and Torque in the world, but if the Ignition System and Timing Advance ain't right, you are not getting the most out of your set-up.

So up for discussion for Members to weigh in can be "What do you run for your Ignition System?"

My Journey:
"Phase I" -For me, I started with the HO Accuracy Kit (2nd attachment) with the Vacuum Advance Control, and left the Coil in the Cap feature alone on the HEI. Tinkered with various springs, and found this stuff worked well on my stock engine.
"Phase 2" was to run a MSD 6H (ancient MSD Box specific for the HEI) and remote coil, this got me more ignition power. MSD Ignition was the first company in the world to experiment with Multiple Spark Discharge for the ignition system of internal combustion engines in 1970. Some MSD Box's were also listed in the HO Performance Catalogue, 3rd attachment.
"Phase 3" was when I went deep, and needed lot's of spark and timing control, as I have a Big Shot Nitrous System which needs big time spark. I "gutted" the HEI and locked it out. Gone was the Weights, Springs, and Vacuum Control. I run the HEI to a MSD Timing Computer, this is outputted to a Nitrous Controller, which feeds a MSD Digital 6+, firing a Accel Heavy Duty CD E-Core Super Coil, back into the HEI Cap, firing thru Accel 8.8 Wires wrapped with Pro Sleeve and Spark Plug Boot Protectors. The spark can jump a foot and could kill you. I run "a lot" of initial advance (a big cam likes advance) and programmed a steep and quick advance curve in the MSD Timing Computer.

TRADERMIKE 2012 · 02-18-2022, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom s

Pretty much all my V builds are on this site. When I built my 366 I bought a set of IV heads to put on it as they were raced and then I got sucked in to the V deal. Just search threads started by me and you will find them. No sense in burning up band width with something already here. Tom

Mike here, I will look at your Posts soon, I just finished with the" H-O" Tunnel Ram PY Forum Revision.

TRADERMIKE 2012 · 02-18-2022, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hesster1977

Topic of the day is Ignition and the HEI Distributor. There are some HO Articles attached of course - this IS a HO Sticky Thread.

Some of us 'Oldsters remember messing with Points and Condenser style Distributors, and these worked well when maintained properly. Manufacturers phased out points and utilized electronic ignition systems by 1975.

Then came the HEI - a pretty darn good distributor.
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/su...-distributors/
"The HEI system was introduced in late 1974 on some GM cars, and was used across the entire GM product line in 1975. This new ignition had a significantly higher output and longer spark duration, assisting GM meet the ever-tightening emission standards. It was used on all GM vehicles, at least in the North American market, from 1975 through the mid-1980s."

Anyone with a performance car knows that you can have all the engine HP and Torque in the world, but if the Ignition System and Timing Advance isn't right, you are not getting the most out of your set-up.

So up for discussion for Members to weigh in can be "What do you run for your Ignition System?"

My journey:
"Phase I" -For me, I started with the HO Accuracy Kit (2nd attachment) with the Vacuum Advance Control, and left the Coil in the Cap feature alone on the HEI. Tinkered with various springs, and found this stuff worked well on my stock engine.
"Phase 2" was to run an MSD 6H (ancient MSD Box specific for the HEI) and remote coil, this got me more ignition power.

MSD Ignition was the first company in the world to experiment with Multiple Spark Discharge for the ignition system of internal combustion engines in 1970. Some MSD Boxes were also listed in the HO Performance Catalogue, 3rd attachment.
"Phase 3" was when I went deep, and needed lots of spark and timing control, as I have a Big Shot Nitrous System which needs big time spark. I "gutted" the HEI and locked it out.

Gone was the Weights, Springs, and Vacuum Control. I run the HEI to an MSD Timing Computer, this is outputted to a Nitrous Controller, which feeds an MSD Digital 6+, firing a Accel Heavy Duty CD E-Core Super Coil, back into the HEI Cap, firing thru Accel 8.8 Wires wrapped with Pro Sleeve and Spark Plug Boot Protectors. The spark can jump a foot and could kill you. I ran "a lot" of initial advance (a big cam likes advance) and programmed a steep and quick advance curve in the MSD Timing Computer.

Mikes Reply: I run the MSD Ignition with the rev. limiter with the plug-in set for 5000 rpm plus the 8.8 wires also and the Dist. has been modified for electronic function. Over the years we had to repair the unit. It is a good thing my roommate is an Elect. Brain. I can't discount the fact that he crossed some wires as we built this second-hand Vehicle.

He always seems to find problems and fixes them, so I keep my mouth shut. I just installed Phenolic covers over the Spark Plug wires as well. After I get finished with the Rebuild of my Trans. I would like to re-curve my Dist. and I have the kit already. I am glad we don't have to mess with the Points and Dwell anymore.

The Vehicle you speak of is the Bandit?

Hesster1977 · 02-19-2022, 02:39 PM

"The Vehicle you speak of is the Bandit?"

It is.
The electrical and wiring is quite complex. I essentially gutted most of the stock wiring, as some of it would not carry the load. MSD Box's want at least a solid 12v feed, as well as other high load items like electric fans, vacuum pumps, exhaust dumps, nitrous solenoid's, etc.
I learned that soldered connections, shrink wrap, grounds everywhere, and Fuses on all components along with Relay's/Circuit Breakers ensure trouble free operation.
I eventually went with a switch panel to control some of the stuff - Master Power Feed, Master Ignition Feed (MSD Box's etc), Radiator and P/S Cooling Fans, Nitrous Fuel Pump, and Main Fuel Pump. And other switch's, sometimes I forget what they all do

What kind of Distributor do you have? You mentioned it was modified for electronic function - some of those conversions can be problematic.

As I said earlier, I stuck with the HEI, even though it has been gutted. The only thing was to shim the slop out of the gear on the Distributor Shaft to the housing clearance.

TRADERMIKE 2012 · 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hesster1977

"The Vehicle you speak of is the Bandit?"

It is.
The electrical and wiring is quite complex. I essentially gutted most of the stock wiring, as some of it would not carry the load. MSD Box's want at least a solid 12v feed, as well as other high load items like electric fans, vacuum pumps, exhaust dumps, nitrous solenoid's, etc.
I learned that soldered connections, shrink wrap, grounds everywhere, and Fuses on all components along with Relay's/Circuit Breakers ensure trouble free operation.
I eventually went with a switch panel to control some of the stuff - Master Power Feed, Master Ignition Feed (MSD Boxes etc.), Radiator and P/S Cooling Fans, Nitrous Fuel Pump, and Main Fuel Pump. And other switch's, sometimes I forget what they all do

What kind of Distributor do you have? You mentioned it was modified for electronic function - some of those conversions can be problematic.

As I said earlier, I stuck with the HEI, even though it has been gutted. The only thing was to shim the slop out of the gear on the Distributor Shaft to the housing clearance.

How about posting Photos of that work of art, all around and in your vehicle for us and definitely on your own Post description. Go to the top where it says "user cppy" and press it and there will be your own site area to post all you want. JMO, Mike out.

Here is the documentation about my Distributor: 1111255/7B9 , Feb. 09 1967 this is how that translates.
As you stated HEI did not begin until 1975 I read in front of me. Mine is Non-HEI with the Relucter and Magnetic pick-up using a Mechanical Advance with 17 oz weights and Springs. I have "not" installed the Advance kit yet.

1967 P/8 400 52.56.62 W/TI 1111255 58.15, Matches above number from the Book.

TI = Transistorized Ignition.

1967 428ci 4bbl 1111237 Distributor with A.I.R. 360/376 HP is what my Engine called for.
OR
1967 P/8 1111251 Distributor with TI.

The reason the former owner of my Vehicle, 1979 Pontiac TA with a 1967 428 ci "HO" Pontiac Engine used this Dist. is because it fits close to the Firewall where the "HEI" will not at all times or so I have read in the past. The cover is too wide.

Hesster1977 · 02-21-2022, 10:25 AM

FYI, from my "Build Thread" posting, and regarding "posting Photos of that work of art" -

"So I took a tip from "TraderMike 2012" and found the PY Albums thread where you can post multiple pics of your car. Not exactly a "Build Thread", but at least it allows lot's of pics, so viewers can see stuff.
I created one on my car "1977 Bandit T/A", and included (15) pics for now."

And -
"The reason the former owner of my Vehicle, 1979 Pontiac TA with a 1967 428 ci "HO" Pontiac Engine used this Dist. is because it fits close to the Firewall where the "HEI" will not at all times or so I have read in the past. The cover is too wide."

I get that, since the 428 never was used in a T/A Body. A little research might be valuable when you get around to trying the Advance Kit - how much initial advance to start with, which lighter springs/weights to try to obtain a desired advance curve, total advance target, etc.

TRADERMIKE 2012 · 01:54 AM

Mikes Reply: I HAVE BEEN RESEARCHING THE CURVE BUSINESS FOR 10 YEARS AND I BOUGHT THE new VACUUM CAN AND springs AND weights KIT, plus A STOP DEVICE. I TAKE 3 STEPS FORWARD AND 2 STEPS BACK. I have so many notes over the years to look back to, and then something always stops me from proceeding. This time it is the Transmission. If up-keep and maintenance doesn't stop me a new anomaly occurs. I would have finished the Cruise Control by now, I have the parts too. I have been studying Trans. 101 for the last 6 months in prep. to build my own. Now my roommate is reading all the Info. that I have gathered, so, he will be up to me when we feel were ready to attack the Trans. rebuild.

We're going to watch some Videos soon. I have seen them all, but he needs to watch them with me. I have gathered rebuild documents from people that took the time to make cutaways of Trans. parts and wrote an essay in between photos and compiled an entire document, I have one on every single part in the TH 400. Then I sourced 1966,1967,1968 ATSG books over the Internet for free. Plus, I have books on Olds, Buick, Cadillac and Buick for cross referencing. I am presently compiling the Schematics and Build Info. with actual Pontiac Trans. Service Manuals this way I have everything at hands distance. I need to buy a few Tools even though I have tons of them, so, I have them in the future too.

I am going to fabricate a press from an extra Hydraulic Jack and I need to purchase a Large Vice and a Bushing Installation kit. I need to purchase A Trans. holding adaptor to my Engine Stand, Blue and Green Assembly Lube too. Harbor Freight here we come. I plan on spending about $100 cash buying tools and end up owning them when I am done. Instead of spending $1400 to the Pro to Build this Trans. , he dropped down to $1000 just for the labor before I frugally offered him $400. cash. I pulled the Trans. and bought all the rebuild parts and I am re-installing the unit and delivering the unit to his shop. I told the man to build it on the weekend and bring his son and teach him the business and I offered him a Video of the build. It used to be the kind of money I made in half a day at good times in the Floor Covering Business, so, I threw out that number to see if he went for it. "As you can see, I am building it myself".

TRADERMIKE 2012 · 02-22-2022, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hesster1977

FYI, from my "Build Thread" posting, and regarding "posting Photos of that work of art" -

"So, I took a tip from "TraderMike 2012" and found the PY Albums thread where you can post multiple pics of your car. Not exactly a "Build Thread", but at least it allows lots of pics, so viewers can see stuff.
I created one on my car "1977 Bandit T/A", and included (15) pics for now."

And -
"The reason the former owner of my Vehicle, 1979 Pontiac TA with a 1967 428 ci "HO" Pontiac Engine used this Dist. is because it fits close to the Firewall where the "HEI" will not at all times or so I have read in the past. The cover is too wide."

I get that, since the 428 never was used in a T/A Body. A little research might be valuable when you get around to trying the Advance Kit - how much initial advance to start with, which lighter springs/weights to try to obtain a desired advance curve, total advance target, etc.

Mikes Reply: After writing on your personal area, I decided to Post here to:

Mikes Reply:

I know you like the Glimmer and Lime light and reflection (and so do I) but, a Ram Air Pan, under the Carb. and a piece of Foam sealed to the inner Hood gives you "Real Air Induction", then simply remove the Pan at shows. You gain an extra quick 36 HP with your Headers maybe more, do the math. I don't remember what the formula is, however one exists. The difference between ambient air temp. and under hood temp. vs Volume of air flow (constant) that bounces off your windshield and forward into the Scoop, Race Car drivers know this trick and now you do.

Making this change myself after my AC raised my under-Hood Temps. some 30 degrees, certainly helped. When you get into Bumper-to-Bumper traffic in Parades for example, you won't have to pull over anymore. The other thing I do Is use Pump Gas Unleaded Rec-90 (Alcohol free) Fuel in those situations for added reliability, costs as much as High test Unleaded but it is worth staying away from Vapor lock. The Pan (made of Plastic) is about $150 vs the Metal version that is twice that. Plastic is easier to cut for modifications and I have one to do to my own Vehicle Pan one day too. Because I am at the Height limit on my Hood, I will cut the Pan latterly in half and drop the Pan around the 3 Carbs. (Each Carb. has a hole in the Pan to set the Pan over 3 Carbs. at once) and put it back together lower, so, I may add my one-inch Phenolics back under the Carbs. and the Hood will still close.

The one-inch Phenolics made a noticeable difference in the past, especially in the cooler months, the Engine likes that cool air just like an air-cooled Motorcycle. Where else are you going to gain 36 HP with such an easy upgrade anyway? By the way, I got the Info. off the Web, Google: "Type in Cold Air Induction Pros and cons and see where that gets you". Also, since you have a 4bbl, they sell on line the Round Air Filter complete kits that fit 1976 TA Scooped Hood. You will cut the Foam in the Windshield area so the air gets in to the Carbs. Intake. You should just have to pull the Pan and re-install your air Metal filter, maybe your air filter fits within the 4bbl Pan too? Try F-body, Chicago land Guy, Ames and Classic Industries, to name but a few.

P.S. My next Paint Job on my Bandit will be Black and will look like the 1976 50 th special limited edition with the German lettering on the Tail Fin. Since mine is T-Top and has the 1976 look anyway it will be a clone plus mine are Fisher Body ones and that is the dead giveaway, if you know your Pontiacs. I learned that the factory had to send out for the Hurst tops and since they were post factory

TRADERMIKE 2012 · 06:17 AM

H-O Racing's Tunnel Ram intakes REVISED BY TRADERMIKE2012 FOR PY FORUM READERS:

file:///E:/Test%20Photo's%20119%20H-O%20Ram%20Air/Mikes%20Revised%20Version%20H-O%20Racing's%20Tunnel%20Ram%20intakes%20-%20PY%20Online%20Forums%20.html

Craig Hendrickson passes:
https://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/m...ig+Hendrickson

TRADERMIKE 2012 · 02-22-2022, 07:10 AM

Trader mike 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Mikes Reply:

Sometimes the Internet Files that I try to Copy and Paste here do not work every time. So, you can try to Copy only some of the Text, then Paste that to your Browser and see if you can have Success. I have had difficult files to open at different times. But, by trial and error, I manage to download what I am Inserting to the Forum. Plus, sometimes Files go out to the Web and you have to pick the correct File from a list. The problem is that if I have not made the File work in 60 min, were stuck with the download anyway, whether or not I have a chance to test it or whether or not it came in incorrectly. The PY forum allows only 60 min. to edit, only. Sorry, I am trying here, that is all I can do.

Mike Reply:
Craig Hendrickson passes:

https://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/m...ig+Hendrickson

Hesster1977 · 02-22-2022, 09:35 AM

"a Ram Air Pan, under the Carb. and a piece of Foam sealed to the inner Hood gives you "Real Air Induction"

Yep - that is a good point, the open scoop does diddley squat if not sealed off. But for me maybe not worth the hassle, as the Demon Carb sits up into the Scoop somewhat, and presents a clearance issue, and it would be difficult to adapt a "Pan". I use the Triangular Pro Flow style air cleaner, it fits inside the scoop and is not restrictive like a typical solid top style one. At least I have good air flow under hood with a big-ass Flex fan, electric cooling fan, and phenolic spacer on the carb.

In support of Cold Air Induction, I do run a CAI Brand unit on my Camaro, with a duct kit that pulls fresh air at the Front Fascia. Keeps that Whipple Blower cooler.

Hesster1977 · 02-22-2022, 11:07 AM

Back to interesting Articles.
This one is from the Pontiac Mag of June '82, written by Herb Adams.
Topic "The Truth about Springs".
Many have lowered their car by using stiff drop springs, and suffered the results.
I remember I cut my stock springs and used Koni Shocks as Herb recommended.

Hesster1977 · 02-22-2022, 11:30 AM

Here is another one from the same mag, on the SD455 "Mule" car.
A "Mule" is the earliest edition of a vehicle in the Engineering Development process, and is constructed about (2) years before regular production. It usually uses a then current production vehicle, and the vehicle is reworked to integrate new powertrains and chassis designs. Wonder if someone out there still has this car - I doubt it as GM usually crushed them for legal reasons.
The Pontiac Mag has lot's of Herb Adams and Nunzi articles, I will pick out some of these to post.
The Nunz has a Q&A Blog in every edition, where he answers readers questions and provides recommendations. He knows his Pontiac stuff like no one else.

TRADERMIKE 2012 · 02-25-2022, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hesster1977

"a Ram Air Pan, under the Carb. and a piece of Foam sealed to the inner Hood gives you "Real Air Induction"

Yep - that is a good point, the open scoop does diddley squat if not sealed off. But for me maybe not worth the hassle, as the Demon Carb sits up into the Scoop somewhat and presents a clearance issue and it would be difficult to adapt a "Pan". I use the Triangular Pro Flow style air cleaner; it fits inside the scoop and it is not restrictive, like a typical solid top style air Filter would be. At least I have good air flow under hood with a big-ass Flex fan, electric cooling fan and phenolic a spacer under the carb.

In support of Cold Air Induction, I run a CAI Brand unit on my Camaro, with a duct kit that pulls fresh air at the Front Fascia that keeps the Whipple Blower cool.

Mike Reply:
Get rid of that Flex Fan, it is for show, as I was told when I had one on my 1971 Chevelle with a 350 Chevy Motor backed up with a TH 350 with a shift kit that chirps gears from first to second gear. I was repairing the AC at the time and the AC Mechanic told me to lose the Flex Fan and use the Factory 19" full size Fan Blade and seal off the Factory Shroud, so that all the Air goes through the Radiator. I would raise the scoop on your Hood, if you want to keep the Phenolics under the Carb. , I can tell by your work that you are meticulous, so why skimp-out on this detail?

TRADERMIKE 2012 · 02-25-2022, 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

H-O Racing's Tunnel Ram intakes REVISED BY TRADERMIKE2012 FOR PY FORUM READERS:

file:///E:/Test%20Photo's%20119%20H-O%20Ram%20Air/Mikes%20Revised%20Version%20H-O%20Racing's%20Tunnel%20Ram%20intakes%20-%20PY%20Online%20Forums%20.html

Craig Hendrickson passes:
https://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/m...ig+Hendrickson

MIKES SECOND REPLY TO THIS: "H-O Racing's Tunnel Ram" intakes REVISED BY TRADERMIKE2012 FOR PY FORUM READERS: PY Forum members just go out and pull the "H-O Racing's Tunnel Ram", directly from the PY Forum and the revisions and Photos will be in that file, I could not insert that file into this one. Best I can do, I will move on to revising other "H-O" files as I get the time, Mike out.