[AROWHED]

Thank you all for your suggestions, will investigate the situation further this weekend. I hadn't really noticed the odd idler wear until I saw this thread had came alive again recently and figured I'd better check it out.

[jimmo]

Originally Posted by AROWHED

Like Jimmo said, I had the same thing happen back in September, the front-most rib of my belt separated. I figured it was stressed from 6 passes at Norwalk and that I had it just a little too tight. I will be changing out the VW alternator pulley now as well.

I took this pic just tonight...note that the idler is polished on half of it's contact face with the belt, and the belt is shiny in the same travel path area as well. Obviously uneven loading against the pulley face but what is the root cause? There is no belt squealing. I wonder if may be necessary to weld some reinforcement metal to the backside of the alternator bracket at the idler pulley mount, to prevent pulley deflection.

Im noticing as I look at your photo, the front rib of the belt is riding on the raised unworn area of the idler and the rest of the belt is down in the worn area. Ive since swapped my idler with a new one and dont have the old one anymore to check but Id bet I had the same situation.

To clarify more to everyone else, Arowhed and I both started of with used idlers that already had a patch worn in. In hindsight, A new idler with a smooth surface should have been installed so that the belt can make even contact right from the start and wear together. I would think a new belt riding partially out of the groove had to contribute to the issue.

Maybe I jumped the gun and swapped the vw pulley for no reason??

[Cammer-6]

Originally Posted by jimmo

There are no spacers on the waterpump pulley, unless Im forgetting something

no but youre trying to line up the crank pulley with the WP pulley.
You can move the WP pulley and eliminate the crank spacer

[jimmo]

Originally Posted by Cammer-6

no but youre trying to line up the crank pulley with the WP pulley.
You can move the WP pulley and eliminate the crank spacer

Oh, I get it now, yea, that was mentioned somewhere and is possible for anyone that wants to do that. It should work the same. You would also have to press the ps pump pulley on a lil more. The only reason I chose to go with the spacer is from an awful memory I have of the time I had to replace my waterpump in a mall parking lot about an hr from home after the waterpump bearing violently exploded with no warning signs. I was lucky enough to be close to a napa and had all the tools I needed to be back on the road in a short time. I would have been kicking myself if I needed to modify the waterpump via a shop press before installing it. probably would have had to tow the car or leave it overnight.
This happened many years ago before the serp install.

[Stuckinda60s]

From the looks of things, I'd say that your alternator pulley is misaligned. You need to make sure that everything lines up with a straightedge when everything's in tension.

You could also be misaligned, vertically, with the idler. But the alternator, from the picture, appears to be oul of true. If you think about it, objectively, you can visualize what could give you that pattern.

[Ollie]

Arrowhed, When you drilled the hole in the alternator bracket did you use a drill press?
If you drilled with a hand drill the hole may not be perpendicular to the bracket causing the belt to not track properly.
Check this YouTube video, showing the correct belt installation.
The belt was installed on an engine with out a front clip for clarity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBGAPMId4Ds
Also on you tube use the search words "Serpentine belt alignment.
Here's another good video.
Ensure the belt ribs are alinged in the groves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBGAPMId4Ds

[AROWHED]

I did in fact use a drill press, the hole size is right on, and deburred the hole. Not to mention the large spacer Jimmo supplied would surely square the idler to the bracket. I'm leaning towards alternator alignment...will be checking it out much closer soon enough.

[Ollie]

Originally Posted by AROWHED

I did in fact use a drill press, the hole size is right on, and deburred the hole. Not to mention the large spacer Jimmo supplied would surely square the idler to the bracket. I'm leaning towards alternator alignment...will be checking it out much closer soon enough.

Yes, alternator pulley alignment. Did you move the alternator pulley out about 0.25"?
if you need a pm your address I have 9, will send one to you.
Go back through Jimmo's post there is quite a discussion on
alternator pulley alignment.
I found some 0.203 spacers on E-bay from this seller.

[Ollie]

Yes, I agree, don't move the water pump pulley. The water pump pulley and the crank pulley should align using the AC delete spacer. I belive it was determined the alternator pulley required about a 1/4" spacer. All other pulleys and idlers are aligned to the crank and water pump pulley .

[Cammer-6]

when checking alignment of anything remember
String is your friend

[jimmo]

Yea, your eyes can play tricks on you. Also camera angles play trick too. Arowhed's system might be dead on in person even though the photo does not reflect that. Ive taken so many photos and sifted thru before posting. Ive had quite a few that distorded my system also.
I did use string when setting mine up. Also a straight edge and one of those picture hanging red laser lines. If ya stare at it long enough it still plays tricks on ya. I also used everyone who visited me to look at it and tell me if they thought it was crooked.
One thing about using the straight edge is that all the pulleys have a different size front lip so ya cant use the lip as the guide. I measured off of it and back to the first rib of each pulley.

[Stuckinda60s]

Ideally, a straightedge will give an indication of misalignment even if the pulley flange thicknesses vary. You should be able to see a difference in the gap if they don't match up. The strings are a great method for the grooved pulleys, you can run them groove to groove or face to face, but they won't tell you anything about the idler alignment.

You might have to use a level to determine if the idler is misaligned. You'd have to jack the back of the car up to get a bubble on the belt pulleys, once they're square, and then check the idler.

[Ollie]

I just purchased one of these, Dayco Laser Alignment tool
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DAYCO-Belt-D...:B:SHOP:US:101
This is a link to a demonstration on how it works.
http://www.dayco.com.au/products.aspx?G=1987&P=18039730

[Stuckinda60s]

That looks like a great set of tools. There doesn't appear to be any provision for checking idler pulleys, though. I suppose you could draw a line on the pulley and use the laser.

[jimmo]

Very Very Very nice tool Ollie. I wish I had thought of investigating something like that earlier. I didnt know it existed. Cant wait to see what the findings are.

Also, good point about checking idler pulleys stuckinda60s. Im sure with everyone on this forum we will come up with something.

[jimmo]

Originally Posted by Stuckinda60s

That looks like a great set of tools. There doesn't appear to be any provision for checking idler pulleys, though. I suppose you could draw a line on the pulley and use the laser.

Sorry, I must have been half asleep when I read that the 1st time. I missed the part about drawing the line around the idler.

[Ollie]

I am thinking belt tension, watch the video I linked in post 242.
Dayco recommends 100 to 300 lbs.
on the tension idler there is a slot on the back side with an indicator pointer.
I set the alternator and power steering pump to the closest position. set the center of the AC compressor shaft 15 3/8 inch from the center of the water pump shaft. When the belt is installed, the pointer on the tension idler is centered in the slot.

[AROWHED]

Actually Jimmo the idler in my pic is a new unit, got it since it was only $20. After eyeballing it a lot closer recently while running, and getting the fan shroud out so it isn't blocking a good line of sight, it is apparent the alternator pulley is too far forward. The reason is the 12SI alternator fan is too far away from the alt housing, and most likely causing insuffcient alternator cooling as a result. So I am going to reduce the height of the collar bushing between alt fan and bearing. It is currently 3/8" tall...it just can't be the correct fan bushing for a 12SI. I would bet .200"' or so would be plenty.

[Stuckinda60s]

Originally Posted by AROWHED

...it is apparent the alternator pulley is too far forward. The reason is the 12SI alternator fan is too far away from the alt housing, and most likely causing insuffcient alternator cooling as a result. So I am going to reduce the height of the collar bushing between alt fan and bearing. It is currently 3/8" tall...it just can't be the correct fan bushing for a 12SI. I would bet .200"' or so would be plenty.

That's the way it appears from the pic you posted.

There are some problems with modifying the alternator. First, the longer moment from moving the pulley out increases the torque the bearings have to support and they're already absorbing more than they would if you were running a V-belt. Second, you're stuck with that setup if anything happens on the road, as another poster mentioned. As you've noted, cooling is an issue, as well. The clearance should be quite close to minimize slip and move as much air as possible.

I haven't followed the mechanics of the set-ups on here really well, so I can't address each one, individually. But, the way I would do any installation is to modify the mounts, rather than the pulley placement on the shaft. Think about it. If you mount all the driven units the way they were designed to be mounted, and, if possible, use off the shelf new idlers, you're ahead of the game if you have any trouble.

[jimmo]

Originally Posted by AROWHED

Actually Jimmo the idler in my pic is a new unit, got it since it was only $20. After eyeballing it a lot closer recently while running, and getting the fan shroud out so it isn't blocking a good line of sight, it is apparent the alternator pulley is too far forward. The reason is the 12SI alternator fan is too far away from the alt housing, and most likely causing insuffcient alternator cooling as a result. So I am going to reduce the height of the collar bushing between alt fan and bearing. It is currently 3/8" tall...it just can't be the correct fan bushing for a 12SI. I would bet .200"' or so would be plenty.

Oh ok, Do you happen to know how many miles your belt lasted?