[Brian Baker]

Still more missing pieces to the jigsaw puzzle.

It's odd how portions of each story kind of fit one another, but together as a whole, the stories don't mesh.

Don brings up that his research suggests that perhaps the wagon Scott is speaking of is not the Union Park SD421 wagon, but another wagon. If that were the case, the wagon in Scott's story would clearly not be a SD421 aluminum front end wagon. Testimony from reliable primary sources (like Ben Pilla) indicate that the car "Hippo" owned and raced was in fact a SD421 aluminum front end wagon purchased from Union Park. Did Union Park get 2 SD421 aluminum front end wagons? No.

Pont406 testified that while Randy owned the car, he purchased a NOS front clip from Bruce Fulper, and that the car had front end damage (which jives with Scott's story). White Warrior testified to evidence of front end damage to the inner fenders (after he took possession of the car). Did Bill Blair wreck the car while he had it? Or was the damage leftover from when before Bill bought it? If it was leftover, wouldn't it had to have been repaired before GMAC would finance it?

It's far too peculiar that so many similarities exist between the stories and the stories don't mesh. Only 6 of these cars were built, so there couldn't have been 2 of them delivered to Union Park (I believe historical evidence from McCarthy's book proves this).

So it still begs the question...what happened between the time the car left "Hippo's" posession and was aquired by Bill Blair?

The world may never know.

[J Brady]

Bob Willams from Colby Kansas bought it and installed a 283 chevy with Stack injectors and raced it at Great Bend during that time. He was one of the few guys to ever use a Turboglide trans in drag racing. He ran the car all the way threw in Grade Retard. The dambest thing I ever saw! I remember it well!

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

Aw, now, that's just plain silly talk.

Jim,

Tell the story about your RA Firebird and the guy who tried to snatch it out from under you.

[J Brady]

Tom Vaught, You should remember Bob, as he raced the car in Kansas City also! Remember he would launch the car in Grade Retard and that little 283 would just scream all the way threw the 1/4 mile. I think Pontiac used parts of the Turboglide to design the powershift transaxle. Tom you can correct me if I am wrong!

[J Brady]

They never shipped any of those cars to dealers in Kansas. Just check out vin 223377u162695, I guess it was delivered to the land of OZ in July of 67!

[tom s]

the SD transaxle is a std tempest TQ trans bolted to a std tempest trans axle except for learger SD axles.The diff is a custom built 2speed planetary(spelling)bolted behind the diff.Throught the whole deal was a shaft that went to a flywheel with a clutch, behind it was a hyd mech. to disengage the clutch.There was also a adapter between the rear 2 speed and the flywheel to mount the starter.Will try and post a pic tonight.There is a tube connecting the 2 2speed units for the fluid movement.GM had to spend millions to build 13 or so units.Tom

[J Brady]

Tom S just kidding around, just trying to see if anyone even remembered the turbo glide with grade retard.

[SpartanMSU]

My family once owned a Lemans wagon from Union Park. Could it have been the second car? It was burgundy, if that helps.

[J Brady]

Only if it had a turboglide!

[SpartanMSU]

I don't know what tranny it had, but it was a '79.

[Brian Baker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SpartanMSU:
I don't know what tranny it had, but it was a '79. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Douchebag.

[pont406]

I suppose it possible that Harold Ramsey could have got a hold of another 1 of the 6 wagons, from one of the other dealers/racers,sometime during the 63 season, selling 1 to "hippo" and another one to Bill Blair. but if Bill's car had the Union Park vin# then the "hippo" car would have had to come from one of the other dealers. reason I bring this theory up is, "Mr Norm" Grand Spaulding dodge,in Chicago ended up buying the "Color Me Gone" 65 Dodge factory AWB Car, and the Butch Leal " California Flash" 65 Plymouth, factory AWB car, from there original owners during the 65/66 racing season. also read that Knafel Pontiac had 4 62 aluminum SD car during the 62 season. remember, Arnie's 63 Tamless tiger/Little B's runabout coupe was originally Mickey Thompson's car.wish someone could find Mike Garfinkel as he could possibly help "fill the gap"

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

I think those who have researched this car will tell you that Hippo bought this car new from Harold Ramsey.

Don, will you confirm this, please?

Garfinkel came along too late in the movie to "fill in the gap."

[Brian Baker]

I think we're talking about the same car here. And to me, it's sounding like it was not a rebody. To me, the only questionable things now about the stories are the gap between "Hippo" and Bill Blair ownership, and how Bill Blair got a wrecked car with no engine financed by GMAC.

[cat tracker]

I have been fortunate over the years to find several SD and rare cars over the years. I don't know any of you personally except I have met Don Keefe one time. I have never heard most of the stories you are kicking around about these cars. But I do see why you are not finding them. You are getting all wrapped up in the chase and details and chasing rabbit trails. Most of the ones I found had the titles missing and the MSO was just a piece of paper that came with the car when it was new. Every SD car that I have found, known about, or located was not anywhere near where it was shipped, bought, or raced. I have seen them come out of Salvage Yards and go into Salvage Yards. One SD Wagon comes to mind here in Texas that Don Gay raced. It was crused. Most of the previous owners knew nothing about where their old cars had gone. The one common denominator was that all the SD car's were shipped to a Dealer on a MSO. They were raced on a MSO. After being raced for a season most of them had the engines, four speeds, and 4.56 rear ends pulled. The engine, transmission, and rear ends were replaced with new SR engines and components and these cars were put on the USED CAR LOT. They were sold to anybody and everybody. Some never knew they were buying SD cars. I talked to one elderly lady who said her husband bought a like new red 62 Catalina from a dealer. She remembered that it had a floor shift, it rattled, and the front ends would dent if you leaned on it. It turned out to be a Aluminum front end SD car and they drove it on the street with a 389 2bbl and a three speed for years. I hope this helps you guys dig up more of these old Pontiacs. = Dwight Sr.

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

Dwight,

You're talking about a car that was owned by and raced by, a dealership. After one season, it because obsolete and was resold as a year-old used car. yeah, I've heard all those stories before. And they could get 60%-70% of the new car price a year prior, so it made sense for them to go through all the charades of making the car resellable as used. It doesn't sound like that's the case with the car in question.

And nobody has ever suggested that the car in question is a rebody, Brian.

[cat tracker]

Scott you haven't heard all those stories before. The reason why is that you are not in the "Inner Circle". I know because I am "Chairman of the Board" - Tex. the Investigator

[J Brady]

But Dwight, You have not answered the question. Did it have a Turboglide!

[cat tracker]

J Brady: It just goes to show how much you know about Pontiacs. Turboglide is a Chevrolet term. Roto-HYdramatic aka "Slim Jim" is what it was called by Pontiac. It had a gear ratio that allowed you to run half the strip in low gear before it shifted. That is some of the time. The other time you were having it worked on under Warranty - Tex the Investigator

[J Brady]

Dwight, You are kidding, I was sure that the turboglide was used in two Super duty tempest wagons. Scott told me they both were sold by Union Park. I guess I was wrong. Sorry!