Then and Now - Page 15 - PY Online Forums

Brew · #1 02-11-2005, 10:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RAIVJUDGE:
I have driven both the new Mustang has more room, especially in the back seat area. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who the F$%* are you trying to fool?

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #2 02-10-2005, 01:11 AM

i was told that if you put a roller cam in a street car its not as durable as a hyd cam. but when i look at a summit catalog with cams for a LT1/LS1 i scratch my head and wonder why i was told that.

Mr_GTO · #3 02-13-2005, 06:38 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by
thanks on the avatar. i agree with your post about 90%. i cant see the mustang handleing better with its solid rear axle. i also think that asking $35,000 for a new GTO is a bit on the high side. the performance isnt worth it. id be embarassed to buy a new GTO and have a couple 4 banger imports (in the same price range) hang rith with it if not beat it in acceleration,1/4,0-60,and in the skid pad. GM needs to do something about this. im surious what the sales figures are on the chevy cobalt. thats that da** import wanna be. id be sick if they are selling better then the GTO. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

GTO is $34K new. Just a hand full of cars can go 13 flat at 107mph, get 26mpg. The top of the line Evo can match it but it doens't have the same torque as the LS2. It is lighter so it will handle better. The Cobalt can't compete with it and the cobalt SS will sell more than the GTO since it is $12K cheaper.

rabon008 · #4 01-23-2005, 09:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
i dont like the new gto because it has a chevy small block in it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once again to the misinformed: Try checking out the technical SAE Paper #970915 titled 1997 GM 5.7 Liter LS1 V8 Engine. It costs $12 and is available on the SAE website.

The designers started out TRYING to use the "chevy small block" platform but soon realized that there were some problems that couldn't be fixed without a clean sheet of paper design. Although expensive and certainly a difficult decision (for not the least of reasons - parts compatibility), the team STARTED OVER! This makes the LS1 a new design. So, if you want to say you don't like the new GTO because it has an OHV V8 in it, then that's fine. But it does not have a small block chevy. Those of you who keep saying that it does continue to show your ignorance in not even wanting to look at the design of the engine. Writing incorrect statements over and over about what you so obviously know so little is not going to make them true.

Read the technical paper and then lets see if you can write technically about how the LS1 is just a "chevy small block", until then don't write what you don't know.

rabon008 · #5 01-31-2005, 11:31 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Don Salisbury:
You can't even give one instance of how they are better?

I thought that was a good instance

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The question was in reference to the LS1 versus vintage Pontiac engines. Try to keep up.

RAIVJUDGE · #6 02-11-2005, 12:38 PM

I may be a die hard Pontiac guy but I am a car enthusiast and I don't let my brand loyalty cloud my judgement. I have driven both the new Mustang has more room, especially in the back seat area. It also feels tighter and more like a sports car should. And when you say the new Stang is slow it is a few tenths slower then the new GTO. When I take the 4,000 I save and invest it into the Mustangs engine I will have 450 HP. Which car will be slow now? My 69 Shelby also rides better then f-bodies of the same era and my Judge never complains when this car is parked next to it

HUMBLER · #7 02-15-2005, 07:23 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Don Salisbury:
Hi Well I have seen the 05s and they will pass better as a GTO the mustang may look like a mustang but it also fits like one . The new car Pontiac called the GTO has a very user friendly and much nicer interior than the stangs . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If they'd just fix the power entry into the rear! The ONLY thing I liked better about the Crapstang.

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #8 01-27-2005, 12:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tripower455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:

so these are wrong ? tell them the LS1 isnt a chevy smallblock and have them redo all their work and see what they tell you.

http://hpbooks.carshopinc.com/produc...2f84627c67f01e

http://www.detroitspeed.com/LS1Book10.html <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those are GM books? Uh, think not.

Hey Don, learn how to resize some pictures ok? jeeezzzz <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

do you have jim hands new book? i assume you do. i also assume he knows his sh**. but wait its not a "GM book". not just anyone can write a book. it helps if they know what theyre talking about. cmon man get off the whole GM kick and back on the short bus. its almost as bad as you saying "its a pontiac because pontiac says so" when i asked you what part of the car was a pontiac. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My '04 says Pontiac on it? It's not a Pontiac? Is my '66 a Pontiac, since it also says Pontiac on it. So did my Formula, Grand Prixs, etc...... Were they Pontiacs? Now I'm almost as confused as you are! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

heres a formula for what makes a pontiac a pontiac.

pontiac engine + pontiac body + pontiac badge = pontiac (old GTO's)

chevy LS whatever (or any other engine that is made to "share" between makes/models) + australlian body + pontiac badge = NOT a pontiac (new GTO's)

just my opinion.

Tripower455 · #9 01-23-2005, 07:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> id be embarassed if i went to the track and lost to a stock import. that would make me wanna sell the car.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How much do you want for your '69?

charlzm · #10 01-24-2005, 07:35 PM

I'm with you, RedGoat - when I saw that thing a few years ago, I groaned and went looking for something less... I don't know, ridiculous? Ugly? Wince-inducing?

Say what you will about the '04+ bland styling, but I think understated is better than just plain ludicrous any day.

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #11 02-13-2005, 12:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RAIVJUDGE:
First of all I am a die hard Pontiac guy ( older Pontiacs) The new ones all look the same and I believe that a car with the GTO nameplate should be distinctive looking and you should not have to squint at one coming down the street and say is it a Grand Am, GrandPrix, G6 ? And for the guy who said I must not have driven both I did . The GTO at Davis Pontiac and the new 05 Mustang at Fred Beans in Doylestown. i am 6'2" and can keep my head in a more upright position in the backseat of the Mustang go figure, I know what the advertised specs say I sat in and drove both so please do not think my comments are because I like the Ford better they are an unbiased comparison.

And Rustang comments are pretty funny since most GTO's and F-bodies rotted away the same way as a Ford. BTW that Shelby is totally rust free , I have 300 pics of the rotisserie resto to prove it. Not many Poncho or Ford guys can claim that.

I more them anyone wanted the new 05 GTO to be the next car I bought but I can't. I like a car to be distictive the new GTO even the 05 is not, so what, they put some scoops on it and split the exhaust out the rear and it has 50 more hp you still have to look twice at it. At the used car auctions they are give away cars because no one wants them, kinda like the Fiero was.

The most recognizable American cars are the Corvette, Mustang, Camaro and Firebird. GM has a winner in the Corvette, they should spend their money and revamp and bring back either the Camaro or Firebird. The GTO and GTO Judge are recognized by true musclecar enthusiasts and are big dollar collectables. Most people know what a GTO is, they don't identify with it because they killed the name off in 74. If GM wanted to go after the BMW market with the Pontiac line they would have been better off using a number to name the new car ie: 346H.O. or 346H or something like that.

The reason to install a Paxton on a new Mustang is because that used to be an option on Shelby Mustangs, thought it would be retro to do one up like a modern Shelby.

Sorry for the rambling, and remember I never said the new GTO was a bad car it handles great and it has good acceleration, it just should'nt be called GTO, it will never be the Legend that the old cars were and still are.

judge_jury_executioner your avatar is funny. P*& on Imports. The new GTO is an import are you p&**ing on that as well.

If I just wanted to go fast I would buy a new Z06 or a CTS-V. The CTS-V is faster then a GTO and new Stang. Imagine that a 4 door Cadillac, fast with class. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thanks on the avatar. i agree with your post about 90%. i cant see the mustang handleing better with its solid rear axle. i also think that asking $35,000 for a new GTO is a bit on the high side. the performance isnt worth it. id be embarassed to buy a new GTO and have a couple 4 banger imports (in the same price range) hang rith with it if not beat it in acceleration,1/4,0-60,and in the skid pad. GM needs to do something about this. im surious what the sales figures are on the chevy cobalt. thats that da** import wanna be. id be sick if they are selling better then the GTO.

3 Deuce 64 · #12 01-26-2005, 09:34 PM

LS2: An Inside Look
We open it up to see what makes the new Gen IV small-block tick

By Barry Kluczyk

When it was introduced for the 1997 model year in the then-new fifth-generation Corvette, the Gen III small-block was indeed a revolution. It was the first redesign of the basic small-block architecture since Chevrolet introduced it in 1955.

Although it retained the characteristic 4.4-inch bore centers, there was nothing else really the same between the old and the new. Not surprisingly, there was some initial trepidation on the part of enthusiasts. After all, several generations had grown up with the ubiquitous small-block Chevy. Its performance, reliability and affordability were the measures against which other engines were compared.

Hummmm it may be different but it still says small block Chevy " It was the first redesign of the basic small-block architecture since Chevrolet introduced it in 1955. "" as I read that it still says small block chevy and it was originally Designed for the CORVETTE is that not a Chevy hummmmm

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #13 01-22-2005, 02:56 AM

no looks arent the most important. if you would have read what i wrote and have wrote before if it performs well its not as important if it looks like crap. i just bring up the import wrong wheel drive (or AWD) cars to prove a point that GM cant keep on throwing a small block in things. now its proven. they can take a car with half the cylinders and make it go just as fast if not faster in the 1/4. theres a reason why i drive my 69 insted of a import. how many other "younger" guys my age say that? but for $35,000 GM should/could have done better. i like the interrior of the GTO (accept the steering wheel) but the outside is a diffrent story. 05 is a little better. looks like gm actually tried (at least half a**ed it) if the 06 or 07 looks/performs like what a GTO should then id actually think about buying one. yes i know for a fact there are several 13 or lower cars around here ive seen them at the track or videos of them or timeslips to prove it. i cant do that and be streetable at the same time. thats a contirdaction ?

Tripower455 · #14 01-28-2005, 10:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
just to let you know im not a expert. i dont claim to be and prolly never will. thats why i buy books and learn. if i was an expert i wouldnt be on here asking for comments or questions about stuff that people have done or have a better way of doing it. why do i have to use technical data to prove my point when i can use common sense? like i said before if you cant understand common sense then you wont understand technical data. pontiacs were made since 78/9. but the real pontiacs were when the engines were made by pontiac. the others just have the badges. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm..... better call Pontiac and tell them to close up shop! I wonder if they know that they they don't exist?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>you keep on telling me to find this of find that but you cant answer one question ive been asking you. what part of the 04 GTO is a pontiac ( found only on or in pontiacs ) other then the badges? you cant side step that question forever. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's an easy one. Again...... The new GTO is the ONLY car available in it's price range that has it's features, just like 1964. It is in every way a modern day GTO. It is a fast, yet practical daily driver (race on Sunday, drive on Monday). If you think a modern day GTO should have a carbed 389, then you are truly living in fantasy land. That will never, ever happen. An exclusively Pontiac engine has only a smidge more of a chance. What economic sense does it make when there is an excellent engine that meets the performance emissions and durability criteria already available.

I have always been critical of the SBC due to the fact that it was a compromise between performance and cost. It was the cheapest engine in (with a few exceptions) the cheapest GM cars. Look at an old school Poncho compared to a trditional SBC, and the SBC parts look like like they came from a lawnmower engine. The LS-1 is NOT a small block Chevy. What SBC (or BBC or Pontiac for that matter) had 6 bolt mains, roller valvetrains etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>maybe you should go to the BMV and get that title changed. ill be waiting on your answers first before i find this or find that from GM sites or GM workers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you're getting me confused with someone else. (I assume that you were addressing me, since I jokingly mentioned the DMV)

I have answered your question many times, and either you choose to ignore it, don't comprehend it, or don't agree. The new GTO is well worthy of the name. I agree that it could be a bit more retro styled, but other than that, it IS a modern day GTO.

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #15 02-10-2005, 11:25 PM

is that why people use bronze dist gears ?

red70goat · #16 01-20-2005, 03:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by slice:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The T-Bird is so exiting, Ford announced it will be discontinued due lack of sales! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My comments about the new T-Bird was not intended to claim an overall success of the car for Ford, but rather to point out how its heritage styling helped create excitement for its introduction. What Ford has done with it since is outside the scope of my original post. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Humbler: See...I told you the operative word there was "when it was released" and not in the context of current volume.

Tripower455 · #17 01-29-2005, 11:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> i dont find comparing a 04 GTO to "like the 64" answers my question of what on the 04 gto is found in only pontiacs? other then the badges. its not the engine,frame,or any other major mechnical components.

ill still wait for your answer.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The fuel rail covers. The seats.

What is your point? The same argument again. Does Pontiac still make cars? A '69 GTO might work as a driver for some, but not most people. Only an idiot would leave a nice vintage GTO unattended for any amount of time or put tons of miles driving to and from work in one. Would you have preferred that the Pontiac marque dissapear with the 265 and 301?

Go and find a car with the same features as the new GTO. You'll have to get into a BMW to get a similar, overall car, but pay more than twice as much for it.

The new GTO is more of an individual than ANY of the original ones, since back in the day, you could go buy 4 almost identical versions of the GTO (Chevelle, 442 and GS) with slightly different drivtrains and trim, not to mention the Tempests, Cutlasses, Skylarks etc, making a GTO look very close to a lot of other cars on the road.

What car, can you go buy right now, that shares anything with the new GTO (other than a Corvette)?

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #18 01-31-2005, 09:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tripower455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>what is this middle school again ? "if you dont answer my question then thats admitting that...." Cmon man grow up a little. and where did i say that the LS1 isnt a good engine? other then the fact that my roomie blew a LS1 in a 98 SS (this was a new car at the time and he wasnt my roomie then) and got a 97 T/A with a LT1 (2 years old at the time) and we tried to blow it and we couldnt. id take a origional pontiac engine over either a LT1/LS1. you want to talk about weaseling out of a question you never answered my question about what part of a new GTslow is pontiac (that means is only found in a pontiac) besides the badges? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me get this straight. Because your friend blew up an LS1, and then didn't, even after trying, blow up an LT-1, you've deduced that a vintage Pontiac is better than an LS-1?

Is deductive reasoning a difficult subject for you? (rhetorical question, btw....)

Why don't you and your friend try to blow up a stock, vintage pontiac. I bet you are able to do it pretty easily. Why do you think it's so hard to find a GTO with it's original engine? I love the traditional Pontiac for what it is, but wouldn't even consider running one up to 6K on a regular basis in stock form.

I'd wager a substantial bet that the LS-1 will stand up to equal treatment a lot better than a stock '69 400 Pontiac of similar power.

BTW, have you run any new GTO's with your '69 GTslOw yet? I think you'll be dissapointed and want to sell it after doing so..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

do you knwo whats in my 69 ? no you dont. you act like the new gtslow is the fastest car on earth or something. trust me if my car wasnt in the body shop now and the streets were clear id run anything (it dosent have to be RWD or in the same price range). and im getting ready to take the motor out and get some rods/pistons so i can use the #16's on and run pump gas. come spring time i hope to be ready. you think the LS1 would hold up better ? maybe because a rev limiter/fuel shut off. isnt technology great? id hope it could hold up better. put a rev limiter and a fuel cut off on a old pontiac motor and it would be a whole new ballgame. i dont need to rev it up to 6k. remember my motor is a pontiac not a chevy so i dont have to play pin the needle on the tach to make power. with my current setup ill be out of power at 6-6,500 but imnot gonna take it up that high. i have no idea how old the internals are in this motor.

3 Deuce 64 · #19 01-27-2005, 12:03 PM

red70goat · #20 01-20-2005, 12:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Randy W:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Again Ford did this when they introduced the new T-Bird, which created tremendous excitement when it was released.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The T-Bird is so exiting, Ford announced it will be discontinued due lack of sales! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe the key word there was "when" not now. The T-bird was and is a "cute" car...not that many people these days in this performance driven environment want a cute car. Perhaps if GM did something like this ( pictured ) with the GTO then Pontaic would live up to it's credo: "We build excitment":