[Jim Mino]

OK Guys,
I don't get on the forum too often, so I'll try to address some comments.

The pricing I posted was from research I did over 10 years ago and I don't recall where I got the info for the additional $15 for the RA I option. It may have been something I heard or read somewhere, but it does seem to add-up for the RA I pricing.

Baron, no problem- I posted to help out if I could, I'm just as curious as you guys about pricing on these cars. Concerning the '68 Bird Convert, It IS a numbers matching RA II (not my car). I came up with the same total as you ($4101.34) indicating this car was BILLED as a RA I. However, this car's billing history has the hand-written adjustment ("$101.65 for RA II engine") indicating the car was DELIVERED as a RA II and billed to the dealer later (all the adjustments I've seen were dated 7/9/68).

This hand-written adjustment appears on the first 10-15 RA II billing history's and pin-points when the first RA II Firebird was delivered (around 5/20/68). Of course, there may have been some pilot cars built before that, but they would be hard to document.

Jim

[Cammer-6]

Originally Posted by brians

I am still trying to figure out when the dealers knew to charge the new price and that might help?



Brian

I already posted that
Price change was documented 4/29/68

[The Boss]

Casting update, C188 - as cast 9792506 block - anybody got a later one?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

The 4/29/68 effective date was on a bulletin dated June 68. The language looks like it applies just towards Birds. Would guess the switch would have been same on A-body and F-body since it's drivetrain related. Still open on that though.

I think some more Ram1 must have slipped in/through beyond that date. As per the example of first Ram2 Bird not being built until May 20 or 22. And then there is the Vert that JMino spoke of with Ram1 pricing and Ram2 BHC corrections that was May 22.

More and more BH Cards can only help here.

The Boss' 05A built Ram1 GTO billed May 8 post dates the bulletin too.

DID ANYONE GET A SCAN OF THE BHC FROM THE WY ENGINE AUCTION - APRIL GOLD CAR ??

Keep those BHC's rolling on in here !

[Cammer-6]

Both A & F were included on the 4/29/68 price change; its very clear on that.
I would guess that some RA2s could have been billed as RA1s but seriously doubt it.
I also have the same percentage of doubt that the reverse was done.
Im not saying that there werent any RA1s built after the 4/29/68 date but
seriously doubt if any were ordered and built after that.

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by Cammer-6

Both A & F were included on the 4/29/68 price change; its very clear on that.
I would guess that some RA2s could have been billed as RA1s but seriously doubt it.
I also have the same percentage of doubt that the reverse was done.
Im not saying that there werent any RA1s built after the 4/29/68 date but
seriously doubt if any were ordered and built after that.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by Cammer-6

Both A & F were included on the 4/29/68 price change; its very clear on that.

Do What ?? Let me re-post that sheet dated June 5, 1968 with the April 29, 1968 effective date listed for price increase that I was referencing in my post - that you quoted and responded to.

PLEASE show me where you see ANYTHING mentioned about a GTO or 242 series on this page. I see Firebird mentioned 2 or 3 times - but there is nothing CLEARLY stating anything about them both. Particularly in the section concerning the 347 option that we are discussing.

I do have a sheet dated May 7 that clearly states GTO and Fbird Ram1 will upgrade to a Ram2 with a listed increase. But it lists no effective date. Nothing about April 29 or a June dating involved. What sheet are you confusing, maybe you have some other sheets that none of the rest of us do, or are you just confused period ?

I consent as I did before that they probably did go hand in hand being as its drivetrain related, but I see nothing that CLEARLY states that as you mention.

Originally Posted by Cammer-6

Im not saying that there werent any RA1s built after the 4/29/68 date but seriously doubt if any were ordered and built after that.

We have no way in knowing from a Car or the BHC when any car was ordered. Do you ? If so, please enlighten us all. All we can verify is a Build Week and a Billing Date.

What Brian and I are trying to get further ironed out is around what BUILD DATE did the switch start instituting. Yes, we all know what you have posted. Yes, we have all the documents saved that Everyone has posted. Yes, we reference and studied them all. And for Gods sake YES we are aware of the 4/29/68 effective date listed on the document. But that evidently means very little to us when compared to build dates we have so far. Surely the Ram2's did hit the line sometime no later than May 20. But that leaves a 3 week gap from April 29 to May 20.

Let me emphasize again, The Boss owns an 05A - First Week of MAY built Ram1 GTO. The Billing Date is MAY 8. How does that fit with April 29 cut-off you keep preaching ? It doesn't. Okay ?

Indeed maybe that Car was ordered before or even on April 29. How do we know. How do you know. Nobody knows. SO..... if we can get more MAY build date cars and MAY dated BHC's - we might find when the actual BUILD change fell into place. THAT IS THE QUEST.

What will this accomplish ?
It will help the guy who finds a clapped out 68 GTO/Fbird or one missing the drivetrain (hopefully me) - determine if it might be worthwhile to send $50 to PHS and see if they have stumbled on a Ram2 machine. So far it appears anything built before 05B will not be in the game. With more BHC's - we might find it stretches out to anything before 05C. Now can you see how the 4/29/68 is not in context with what the rest of us are trying to determine here ? We understand the document, but it has no exact/direct bearing on the cowl tag build date of the Car so far by example. Otherwise, The Boss would own a Voodoo Green Ram2 Automatic GTO built 05A with Ram1 pricing.

We want to find the earliest BHC we can that has a Label Price that factors into the Ram2 price schedule.

Your last 5-6 posts have seemed lacking and almost like an effort to block further findings and/or conspire against what we have verified by actual BHC's and documents.

Whats up with that Cammer ??

[The Boss]

I'm still putting the XW in it when I restore it.

It's gonna be one bad *** mother ******!

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

This is an edit to my last previous post. The edit feature has been put on a timer now I think ? Timed out on me.

Cammer didn't quote my response, he just simply responded to it. Close enough for cannon balls.

Boss what about the Burgundy Car ? Gonna Deuce it up too aren't you ?

I have the April Gold RamII/4spd BHC. I'll post a run-down on it later on.

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

This is an edit to my last previous post. The edit feature has been put on a timer now I think ? Timed out on me.

Cammer didn't quote my response, he just simply responded to it. Close enough for cannon balls.

Boss what about the Burgundy Car ? Gonna Deuce it up too aren't you ?

I have the April Gold RamII/4spd BHC. I'll post a run-down on it later on.

Correct XS but with a II top end - I'd like to get a set of the January 69 SR Heads and have it look over the counter - but I may have to go with a set of regulars that I have.

How many BHC's have you done so far? Any idea which ones are real and which are gone?

[Cammer-6]

Your last 5-6 posts have seemed lacking and almost like an effort to block further findings and/or conspire against what we have verified by actual BHC's and documents.

Whats up with that Cammer ??



Maybe you need to re read posted info instead of public bashing.
If you want to comment to me directly take it to a PM.
I didnt invent this info PMD did,so far this is the only documented
reference Ive found to substantiate the rollover date for RAI-RAII.

[mmarx]

It seems we have two different rollover situations here...one for sales and one for production. The sales is a dated memo of 4/29/68 and the production rollover is the EUN, 646615 to 646616 (Both A and F bodies) which might have had been date specific.

I think Jim hit the nail on the head, the factory was playing 'catch up' with what was built compared to what was originally invoiced hence the price adjustment to the dealer after the fact.

RA1John, do you have the build week of this car: Inv.Date: 5/22/68 8U16427X EUN: 65882X RAII/4sp/Cv?? The Black/Black/Gold GTO II has a build date of 05C (per the current owner) and is the earliest GTO II build date so far (I think).

This has got to be one of the best threads goin'...

Mike

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by mmarx

It seems we have two different rollover situations here...one for sales and one for production. The sales is a dated memo of 4/29/68 and the production rollover is the EUN, 646615 to 646616 (Both A and F bodies) which might have had been date specific.

I think Jim hit the nail on the head, the factory was playing 'catch up' with what was built compared to what was originally invoiced hence the price adjustment to the dealer after the fact.

RA1John, do you have the build week of this car: Inv.Date: 5/22/68 8U16427X EUN: 65882X RAII/4sp/Cv?? The Black/Black/Gold GTO II has a build date of 05C (per the current owner) and is the earliest GTO II build date so far (I think).

This has got to be one of the best threads goin'...

Mike

Mike,

The EUN specific rollover is for 1967 - and was listed in the Master Parts Catalogue - that number does not reference 1968.

FYI.

Chris

[mmarx]

Originally Posted by The Boss

Mike,

The EUN specific rollover is for 1967 - and was listed in the Master Parts Catalogue - that number does not reference 1968.

FYI.

Chris

Chris, actually in mine it does...but it looks to be an error. They have both '67 and '68 referencing the same asterisk. Kind of strange as this Catalogue has previously been dead on...it covers up to '72.

That being said, I would think that there would have been an EUN cutoff like '67 for '68 as the heads and assorted parts were completely different. How did the factory know when to change over? I know, that's what we're trying to find out...

Mike

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by Cammer-6

Maybe you need to re read posted info instead of public bashing.
If you want to comment to me directly take it to a PM.
I didnt invent this info PMD did,so far this is the only documented
reference Ive found to substantiate the rollover date for RAI-RAII.

This is not public bashing from my end. My reason for bringing this to your attention is it has appeared more like you bashing/heckling me. Can assure you I'm fully up to speed on what has been posted.

There was the shoulder belts issue I brought to attention, that you disputed my post. And you were wrong.

There was the Misc Eqpt list I was searching for, you disputed and declared almost nothing existed for Birds in those sections. And you were wrong. I found the list with 12-13 items myself.

Now you rebuke me by saying a document CLEARLY states something. I re-posted the document and you dodge in your reply. Where does the document CLEARLY state that Cammer ? Well, it doesn't - does it.

To me, it appears you have been publicly heckling me. So I'll keep it perfectly public as well. There are other instances as well in this thread, but these 3 should serve well enough and keep it on the short side.

No one ever said you invented anything. So stop playing dodge ball and answer up already.

It appears YOU have a problem with ME. I have none with you, but have grown tired of this heckling of yours. Don't send me a PM because I will only post it to this thread. If you can't stay in the public eye, then stop senslessly rebuking my posts.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by The Boss

...How many BHC's have you done so far? Any idea which ones are real and which are gone?

I've posted them all - except the April Gold - still haven't done it yet (oops).

Ram1 Birds - 3
Ram2 Birds - 3

Ram1 GTO - 3
Ram2 GTO - 4 (5 with April Gold) (2 are Verts)

The Ram2 GTO hardtops are the only ones I don't know if they still exist. The Blue Auto you posted, The Green 4spd Brian posted, The April Gold 4spd is probably in the dust.

SteveD400 needs to go over at Garys and get us 4 or 5 more Ram2 BHC's !

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

1968 GTO Ram2 4spd Hardtop
April Gold GG / 223 Black buckets
Billing Date : 7 / 01 / 1968
Billed To: 09 zone 649 dealer


347 Ram Air.......................................blank
358 4spd.........................................184.3 1
361 STT HD Posi................................63.19
37S Axle 4.33..................................... n/c
382 AM Radio/Man Ant........................61.09
434 Hood Tach..................................63.19
453 Rally 2 wheels..............................84.26
477 (471 Wood Wheel.........................30.54
----(472 Console Man.........................52.66
----(474 Clock elec..............................n/c
484 Rally Gauges and Clock..................50.55
525 (521 Disc Brakes Frt......................63.19
-----(524 Wood shift knob....................4.21
71R/72C RC G77 Reds......................... Std
742 operation code for 754...................n/c
754 Frt Shldr Belts...............................n/c


Options total (less RA).....................657.19
Destination......................................6 5.00
Base price....................................3101.00

Subtotal......................................3823 .19

Ram Air II......................................473.94

TOTAL........................................4297. 13
==================================
Label Price..................................4297.13

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Has anyone else noticed how VERY well equipped all the Ram2 GTO's have been so far ?

Nothing close to a Stripper yet. 4 out of 5 of them have even been HEAVILY optioned.

[Cammer-6]

BVZ
I have no beef with you.Sorry if you perceive it this way.
In fact I ll even buy you a cold one and we can talk bench racing.
This thread was started in the Firebird section and Ive been trying to
keep it on topic of Firebirds. Perhaps the mixing of GTO info has gotten
this lengthy dialog a little clouded up.Lets get past all this and move on
to explore and discover more useful information.

[mmarx]

RA GTO on the 'Bay...http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/68-GT...QQcmdZViewItem

Advertised as a 1, invoice date of 5/7. BVZ, is there enough info here to price it out?

Mike