[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by ponchjoe

I’m afraid to post anything for fear the thread police might come calling...

Ah screw it,...

Is there any way or has anyone ever had a cam walk back and forth and hit the plug if it is in too far??

In a Chevrolet it's possible. I had a roller cam in one, and at that time I was using the rollerized button. But it would tap the timing cover while running. Intermittently, and it was annoying. I pulled that and put the more common plastic cam button in it and no more noise.

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by ponchjoe

I’m afraid to post anything for fear the thread police might come calling...

Ah screw it,...

Is there any way or has anyone ever had a cam walk back and forth and hit the plug if it is in too far?? I’m also the guy asking about the starter in the video and also of the thought of TC bolts

The suspense is just killing to find the root cause....

The only way this could happen in a Pontiac is if the fuel pump eccentric bolt came off the front of the cam. Otherwise there is a thrust plate there to hold the cam in position. It had .005" cam end play from what I remember. If the bolt did come loose, the engine would not run because the fuel pump would no longer be pumping fuel. The bolt would only have to back off a few threads before the fuel pump eccentric came loose and quit working the pump. So I doubt this is the case, but good thinking outside the box!

[TedRamAirII]

Any Trans shop could replace that in 1 hour. I once was talking to a friend that owns a trans shop, as I was going in, he had a guy there pulling the trans back on a 1990 Camaro to replace the flex plate because of a starter issue. I think I was in there 30 minutes and as I was leaving, the car was being lowered on the lift.

[tom s]

I think it would have to be able to run without a dist to do that?Tom

[JLMounce]

Is that even possible in a Pontiac? Even if the rear plug wasn't there?

The end play is determined by the relationship of the cam gear and eccentric (or spacer) to the cam plate and it's thickness. It's essentially held in at the front of the engine. I suppose if the eccentric was left off and the cam plate was thin, you could cause an excessive amount of end play. I don't know if that would create a near rhythmic tapping though. I would think it would be easy to see a lot of wonder in the timing if that was the case though.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

Is that even possible in a Pontiac? Even if the rear plug wasn't there?

The end play is determined by the relationship of the cam gear and eccentric (or spacer) to the cam plate and it's thickness. It's essentially held in at the front of the engine. I suppose if the eccentric was left off and the cam plate was thin, you could cause an excessive amount of end play. I don't know if that would create a near rhythmic tapping though. I would think it would be easy to see a lot of wonder in the timing if that was the case though.

There are 2 styles of camshaft galley plugs commonly sold for the back of the block. One is a shallow plug, the other a deeper plug. It is possible to drive the deeper plug in too far causing the end of camshaft to rub on the flat face of the plug. The block plug kits use the two interchangeably if properly installed.

The area is pretty well lubricate so it is doubtful it would make any noise or cause any problems.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Can't figure out what I'm seeing here...
The bottm end pic doesn't show any grinding or de-burr work on the outside of that crank arm.
Edge of arm face behind number three rod.


Just asking
Clay

[Bentwheelbob]

Well, it’s been almost 6 months since the “ticking was heard. On April 10 Cliff said he thought it sounded like an exhaust leak. Good luck. You’re more patient than me.

[grivera]

I believe Joe will be doing some more testing this weekend. If he unbolts the converter from the flexplate pulls it back and the noise remains, will that rule-out the flexplate being the culprit?

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by grivera

I believe Joe will be doing some more testing this weekend. If he unbolts the converter from the flexplate pulls it back and the noise remains, will that rule-out the flexplate being the culprit?

I would say yes, because there is no flex going on when the two aren't bolted together. If it doesn't go away and the flexplate is rotating by itself, the noise should change appreciably, I would think it should go away though.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Next step should be a surgical clean oil and filter inspection. That's with a spotless clean white or clear drain pan.
I'd stick a flex head pocket magnet in the oil drain hole to see if any of the previous metalic paint look is present now and if it was ferrous or nonferrous.
Use the same magnet to check filter contents and oil in the pan.

If that oil is fresh and clean...It can go back in.

Joe was told that X amount of metal in the oil was normal for a new engine. This unknown X amount should've been gone after a few oil changes I would think.

With Paul's honing process and roller cam....I think this engine had way too much glitter look in the filter and oil pan pics.

IF metalic is still present and if the filter bypass is functional....This engine could be in worse shape than the original knocking noises.

The first converter un-bolt had no affect on the bottom end noise or the collapsed lifter type noise on top.

Hard to tell watching videos, but in the most recent top side vids, the knocking sounds more defined and louder.

IDK for sure but know what I think
Clay

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

"There was a difference between the short block oil pump and my motor. "

"Difference"...details of this ?

Hope this (is?) isn't another quality issue with an aftermarket part!
Lord knows they're widespread.

I had a new one, Melling M54DS, sitting in box, in my bedroom, the driven gear seized to the idler shaft, and I mean locked up tighter than a whore's heart. Purchased about 3 years ago.
They did switch to the thin lower plate from the previous one I bought... 20+ years ago, same pump but old one came in a Sealed Power box.

[wbnapier]

[QUOTE=STEELCITYFIREBIRD;5988764]"There was a difference between the short block oil pump and my motor. "

... locked up tighter than a whore's heart...

I haven't heard that one. I'll have to borrow it that saying if you don't mind.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by grivera

I believe Joe will be doing some more testing this weekend. If he unbolts the converter from the flexplate pulls it back and the noise remains, will that rule-out the flexplate being the culprit?

In most cases yes, unless it is actually a crack at the mounting surface of the flexplate where it meets the crank flange. It could also be contacting something protruding from the pan or block (but not very likely).

As for glitter, I would have to go back and look at the pics, honestly don't recall off the top of my head, but I do remember there were no red flags. Not sure if it was the pics, or if it was residual from the windage tray and valley pan, but I saw no reason for alarm.

Yeah, I recall the first converter pull back and results (I wasn't present), which is why I commented on the flexplate hub and possible crack there. Long shot, but can't honestly say if it was checked in depth enough to tell if it was a crack somewhere else, other than the common converter mount points. Should know soon enough though.

.

[Va68goat]

dataway,

"LeGoaT/As" and I actually spoke about the sound file that you did. We referred to that and the slow motion video that I took. That was very helpful and I appreciate what you took the time to do. The thing is Paul and Jeff requested / suggested several things to rule out before having to send the motor back. The thing is this...I was told by Paul and Jeff that if I send the motor back to them and they can't repeat the knocking noise, I'm going to have to pay for shipping to and from Arizona. I already have spent $1,600 in parts, tools and fluids conducting diagnosis on this motor since I've received it. Not including over 80 hours of friends helping me trying to figure out the problem.
If the issue turns out to be something on their end, they agreed to cover the cost of shipping to and from. There is no denying that the noise at first start is the same as the noise that is happening now with the exception of the windage tray that was being hit due to the incorrect spacing.

STEELCITYFIREBIRD,

I'm going to do my best to describe the difference. I have ZERO experience with this stuff but here is my best untrained explanation. When we used a screwdriver to turn the oil pump quickly by hand, there seemed to be a "clicking noise" and there was some resistance. I really don't have the experience with cars to have a reference point as to what it's supposed to feel like and sound like. So, LeGoaT/As had a short block with an oil pump on it and the pan had oil. When I turned the oil pump on the short block, there was no clicking noise and the resistance was not as great. I don't know if the difference in oil pumps could be the explanation for the difference in the resistance and that "clicking" noise. I know when Paul built my motor there was an issue with the pickup tube and he had to weld the pickup tube to the oil pump.

LeGoaT/As also used an old distributor and attached a drill to it to turn the oil pump. The resistance was more pronounced through the use of the drill because we had more consistent revolution using the drill (we spun the pump at a lower speed, not maxed out that the drill could do). I hope this makes sense and I'm explaining it well enough for you guys to get a better feel of what is going on.

[dataway]

Fingers crossed.

[Va68goat]

Well, yesterday, I trailered the car to "LeGoaT/As" shop and we got some work done to the car. We switched out the flexplate, had the torque converter pulled back and started the car. The exact same knocking noise was present. We called Paul and told him the knocking noise was still there. Now...hopefully "LeGoaT/As" will chime in here because I'm pretty sure that I will miss something and not explain it correctly but I'll give it a try. Paul suggested that we pull the timing chain cover off and ensure the cam bolt was tightened (I think thats what it's called). LeGoaT/As verified there were no issues with the timing chain and everything was snug and correct. Paul then suggested that we pull the distributer and turn the oil pump. We turned the pump and and LeGoaT/As and I noticed that was a slight "clicking" noise and there seemed to be some unusual resistance. LeGoaT/As had a short block 400 motor in his shop that had oil in it and we turned that oil pump. There was a difference between the short block oil pump and my motor. I called Paul and let him know what we discovered. I'm waiting to here back. LeGoaT/As feel free to chime in here because I'm sure I didn't explain this as well as you could.

[dataway]

I can't believe you guys are discounting my in depth sound analysis that says this is a noise at 1/2 crankshaft speed

I'm going with a slightly bent oil pump drive shaft that intersects the crankshaft counter weight every other revolution. Just kidding.

Can't wait to find out what it is.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

"clicking " with drill on your engine? Or only with screwdriver?

The short block had no valve train so less oil pressure resistance. Hard to make a comparison, too many variables can and are likely present.

Send it to Paul, get it moving... figure out the cost allocations privately!!

You've done due diligence and a lot of cooks been in the kitchen, time to get it moving forward!

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by STEELCITYFIREBIRD

The short block had no valve train so less oil pressure resistance. Hard to make a comparison, too many variables can and are likely present.

If lifters were in it, it would have built oil pressure all the same.

Resistance comparison would require "identical" conditions: pump clearances, bearing clearances, oil weight, temperature, etc...

Resistance should increase with RPM (oil pressure climbing) untill the relief valve opened where the turning resistance would level off.

I'm sticking with surgical clean and thorough oil and filter inspection being desperately needed. Bottom of pan swabbed through drain hole. Check any residue, metalic dust, flakes, for being ferous or nonferous. It's the only way I know of checking without a visual tear down and inspection.

Clay