[njsteve]

Thanks. I do enjoy a good debate, though, once in a while.

It kind of reminds me of the scene in Princess Bride between the Sicilian and Dread Pirate Roberts and their battle of wits. :-)

[RamAir]

I'm with you on this Steve, you are doing what's necessary to preserve the integrity of the car. Keep cleaning away, but it looks like you have it covered.

[West Coast GTO]

It is still a right here in America to have an opinion. It is also an old saying that " opinions are like noses, everyone has one."
As far as removing the " patina" of a low mileage survivor car, opinions definitely run strong! Just where does one draw the line?
If, for example, my survivor car has a leak from the timing cover front oil seal that leaves a puddle of oil on the garage floor as well as contributing to the " patina" of the oil covered pan, trans and floorboards, do I repair it? After all, that leak helped to create the oil " patina" that covers the underside of my car. Also, if that seal should be replaced, should I clean off the dirt and oil covered components and preserve any bare metal that will soon rust OR leave those components dirt and oil caked and then re-establish a matching dirt/ oil " patina" on any and all securing screws or bolts?

Here is another question: my car has a quarter size rust hole at the bottom of the passenger fender, obviously from the drain hole that had become plugged over the last 40 years. So, my 14,000 mile survivor car has an ongoing deteriorating condition that will continue to get worse as time goes by. Should I have it repaired to preserve the original date coded fender that Pontiac installed in 73 or just let it rust away for the sake of the " patina'?
Steve's car has a remarkable history and it is apparent that he is preserving the originality of his car.
Oh, that's right; it IS his car after all!

[njsteve]

I see my role as more of a conservator in this case: trying to halt any future degradation (changing the bad fluids and fixing the damage they caused).

One of the Yenko.net guys (Charley L) acquired an 1,100 mile 1970 Z/28 a few years ago. it was parked since 1971 when it got a door ding. He has dedicated a complete website to just the documentary photographs of the car. Dusty, oily, covered in undercoating, etc,. When he acquired the car he drained and replaced the oil, removed and cleaned the filter, drained the fuel tank, disassembled the carb (the gaskets had shrunk), pulled the plugs in order to oil the cylinders to get the stuck motor turning again. He tried to pull the distributor to prime the oil pump, but it was frozen into the intake/block. He pulled the rear drums off the verify the condition of the brakes and take photos.

That Z/28 was on display at the MCACN show a few years ago. In his video interview he mentions that the master cylinder cap has never been off. You can see the master cylinder's rear seal is leaking as badly as mine was, from the photos.

I like what he has done/not done with the car but I would have pulled the master cylinder to stop the brake fluid leak since it can cause some serious paint damage.

And no, Charlie did not fix the door chip that the high school friend of the original owner's sister caused, back in 1971.

Here's the website: http://1970z28camaro.com/

[Rocky Rotella]

Steve,

Did Rick ever mention running the Formula on his company's dyno? Was it possible that he removed the kick down lead to prevent the trans from downshifting while on the dyno? I know it's commonplace to do that when measuring performance on a chassis dyno.

[Formulabruce]

OK Steve, I read a whole page or more , with pics, on the "Offending item" ( that sure sounds like a lawyer to me!!) I have an "offensive item" too, little skeptical on the Aluminum though.. so after all that work , it begs the question...HOWS THE HEAT WORK??? hehe .. ( ps, what Stat does it have?)
Any thought to putting some sort of cable protection to your hood cable "bushings"??

[REFORMULATED]

Yes a very beautiful car and really enjoy this thread and all the info.

Originally Posted by johnta1

WOW!

Congrats on a beautiful SD Formula.

[njsteve]

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

OK Steve, I read a whole page or more , with pics, on the "Offending item" ( that sure sounds like a lawyer to me!!) I have an "offensive item" too, little skeptical on the Aluminum though.. so after all that work , it begs the question...HOWS THE HEAT WORK??? hehe .. ( ps, what Stat does it have?)
Any thought to putting some sort of cable protection to your hood cable "bushings"??

The heat works fine now. The aluminum heater core fit fine and the two metal tubes were actually in the right position to fit through the firewall holes. (I had a nightmare time 8 years ago doing the heater core on a 1969 Camaro with A/C. I went through the installation process with three cores before I figured out that the tubes were about a 1/4" off and cracked their solder connections when you tried to get the heater box assembly back into position. Nothing like going through 8 hours of labor just to see a green drip on your floor mats...again. GRRRRR!)

On the grommet, I packed the area with some heavy wheel bearing grease so the cable slides nicely. It seems to be staying in place and the cable smoothly runs through it. That grommet made all the difference in the world. I am just glad the cable didn't snap from years of people pulling on it, against the sharp edges of that groove in the steel.

[njsteve]

Originally Posted by Rocky Rotella

Steve,

Did Rick ever mention running the Formula on his company's dyno? Was it possible that he removed the kick down lead to prevent the trans from downshifting while on the dyno? I know it's commonplace to do that when measuring performance on a chassis dyno.

Rocky,
I sent him an email with your exact question. For the life of me, I can't figure out why it never occurred to me to ask him the dyno question before: You owned your own chassis dyno, So what numbers did it pull? Duh!

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by njsteve

Rocky,
I sent him an email with your exact question. For the life of me, I can't figure out why it never occurred to me to ask him the dyno question before: You owned your own chassis dyno, So what numbers did it pull? Duh!

Anxiously awaiting his response!

[njsteve]

I spoke with Rick today and he is finalizing the novel-length biography of the car. He doesn't do computers so he is typing it up and will then notarize it and send it to me. What a guy!

He had no idea that the kick down switch was disconnected all these years. He never disconnected it and no one before me had ever pulled any of the lower ductwork out to access that area. So the only logical explanation given the lack of any installation marks on the brass terminals, is that it was never hooked up on the assembly line.

On the chassis dyno question, Rick said he did run it once but the car had so much power that it tried to climb off the dyno! Their chassis dynos back then had two rollers - a driven roller in front of the rear wheels and a free wheeling roller behind the rear wheels to hold the car in place. They ran a special tuning program on their dynos: the car would maintain a steady 2,500 RPM run and more resistance would be added to the dyno wheel as test went on. The driver then had to gradually add power to maintain the 2,500 RPM with the engine. The more powerful the car, the higher the propensity for it to climb the front roller. It was a very dangerous situation as the cars could then jump the wheel chocks and launch out of the building. Unfortunately, Rick didn't recall what the results were, probably because he was too worried about the car launching into orbit, off the dyno roller at the time.

[Larry Navarro]

The term "patina" is overated when it comes to collector cars. Vehicles of the era are considered artform, why not view and present them like they were as new.
Kudo's Steve.......you are doing it right, no need for an explanation.

[bird72]

The car world is hip to numbers and original codes and correct. The vintage guitar world is where to learn about "patina"..... it is the one thing that is awful hard to recreate, although highly vaunted craftsmen do make a living taking Historic new production Les Pauls and relicing and aging them.

It is a valid interesting topic and probably a source for much future, err, argument, err, discussion, in this vintage car hobby.

I am glad to see survivor cars sought to be kept that way, and I personally would drool over a survivor more than a shinier resto, but I dig vintage and patina, and antique, from unbiased Mr Analog Reel To Reel.... old looking is better by default

[njsteve]

I think it is a very interesting topic to discuss.

I bought up this very issue with one of the survivor class judges the other day and he mentioned that there are true "barn finds" who's intrinsic value lies in the fact that they are left in their absolute, as-found condition, complete with all the dust, rat poop, bird droppings and assorted residues covering them, and then there are cars that have survived the span of time by being carefully maintained. I believe that my car is the latter, and not the former. So that was why I proceeded to carefully clean the "residues" off the underside of the hood and inside the reservoirs, etc.

With the barn find, the commonly accepted definition of patina includes the overlying dirt and deterioration.

With the survivor, the definition of patina strictly encompasses the deterioration of originally applied finishes and cleaning and preserving them carefully and correctly is encouraged.

He also mentioned that virtually no points are deducted in this type of judging of a car, for example where the underside is covered in road grime and grease, because of the risk that removing it may pose to any original markings that overzealous cleaning could destroy.

[tdavidl]

ok, can someone post a definition of patina where it includes dirt, crud, grime & grease....note where you found the definition (if you can find one) ;-)

apparently the moment any of us cleaned our car it lost it's patina ;-)

nice job steve "cleaning" up the car....

[Held for Ransom]

Just try cleaning a bronze statue and listen to the critics scream...

[njsteve]

Originally Posted by Held for Ransom

Just try cleaning a bronze statue and listen to the critics scream...

I know what you mean.

Every time I watch one of those stupid pawn shop TV shows and see some ignoramus bring in a 200 year old pistol that they just "cleaned up" with some steel wool, I cringe.

And then the idiot pawn broker has to take the gun out and shoot it "cuz a workin' gun is worth more".

Here is an example of patina. This bayonet had been in my Dad's garage in Connecticut, when I was a kid. For years we used it to open motor oil cans, not knowing it was anything special. I originally found it in the oil pit in the floor of the barn on my brother's property next door. The town dates back to the early 1700's. The bayonet is a British Sea Socket Bayonet from circa 1740's, most likely there since the Revolutionary War. I tried getting it appraised several times over the years but every time I ask for a valuation for insurance purposes, they always come back with "will you sell it?" That's when I know they aren't going to give me an accurate value. So it goes back in the safe. It is a neat piece and has a perfect original patina to it. All I have done is keep it wrapped in an old oily cloth.

[njsteve]

I found a vintage set of AC R44TS triple green striped insulator, spark plugs on ebay. I got them for $14 from someone selling estate stuff from an old garage. I installed them today, replacing the recent AC R44TS set that was put in there a couple years ago. The car runs noticeably smoother. (Probably because one or two of the plug wires were not fully seated on the plugs to begin with).

The plugs I pulled out all had nice tan insulators and appeared to be burning nicely. The one thing I noticed was that the vintage green stripe plugs have a 3/8" shorter insulator than the modern versions. Anyone have any idea why they made the modern ones longer?

[Formulabruce]

talking about the upper portion of the plug?

[njsteve]

The white porcelain part.