[cat tracker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blown Nitro Pontiac:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brian Baker:It proves that Union Park had the car for a few months in 1964 before selling it to Willey's. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the altered title posted here is authentic, it proves only that Union Park had a title.

My questions regarding why Union Park would have lost money on a car by buying it back (assuming they bought it back) are still unanswered.

Car dealerships don't exist to lose money.

Why did Don alter the title after posting it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Just remember that I tried to warn you about the "Circle Flys" - Tex the Investigator

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

"Circle Jerks", Dwight.

Get it right.

And thanks for putting your warnings into writing. They'll help later on.

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dwight Crawford:
Blown Nitro Pontiac:

I have read every post in regards to this matter and I am very concerned that you are going to get bit by some "Circle Flys". - Tex the Investigator </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, thanks.

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

Just imagine, Dwight;

All this time, I thought you only owned a bunch of broke dick 4 doors and a butcherjob pro street '63 Lemans!

In dis pickture, you look mighty proud o' dis one hear:



Nice 'vert, D'white.

Ain't dat sumptin'?

Dat sho' 'nuff is.

[misterp266]

Came across this "unretouched" photo of the Union Grove wagon from 1964. (see date at bottom of picture) Sure looks like the same car to me!

Case closed.

BNP: Are you a racist?

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by misterp266:
BNP: Are you a racist? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What's a racist?

[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"I never made any claim of impartiality. You pissed on my friend's grave and I took it personally."

I concur on that statement. Randy Williams was a good man and this BS has served nothing constructive. The "Inner Circle" knew of the valid title and never gave it a second thought about any wrong doing. Don's posting makes it worldwide knowledge now. FORMAL APOLOGY time, Sonny!

Quote:

"It would still be interesting to be able to document the cars history when DeNick owned it and lost it, and perhaps in doing so, it would shed some light on why these dealerships entered the practice of titling the cars in their names before resale."

Brian, at least in Michigan where my uncle's dealerships were, the Dealer HAD TO POSSESS the title of any vehicle on his lot, by law, and if an state investigator found a vehicle on his lot without one there was hell to pay.

I kept a 65 GTO and a 66 GTO (I owned) at my uncles Pontiac dealership for a few days and had to remove the cars when it became obvious that they were not there for repair but because I was "storing" them on his lot. I kept them inside the dealership for a couple of days until I found a new home for them to stay at.

Hope this helps.

Tom V.

I love this sig by CRAZY RAY:

"If you act like an ass don't be insulted if people ride you." Words of Wisdom, Sonny!

[cat tracker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blown Nitro Pontiac:
Just imagine, Dwight;

All this time, I thought you only owned a bunch of broke dick 4 doors and a butcherjob pro street '63 Lemans!

In dis pickture, you look mighty proud o' dis one hear:



Nice 'vert, D'white.

Ain't dat sumptin'?

Dat sho' 'nuff is.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I have been trying to give you a friendly warning about "Circle Flys" but this convinced me I am wasting my time. - Tex the Investigator

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

Yes, D'white, you truly are. And, I must say, you've been very "friendly."



Now tell me sumptin'; what am de color on dat car be?

And do it have a Ford gas tank in de trunk?

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom Vaught:
Quote:

FORMAL APOLOGY time, Sonny! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For what, Pops? For questioning the authenticity of a car whose history was, and still largely is, unsubstantiated?

Don't hold your breath, 'cause an apology for asking questions of this nature ain't gonna be forthcoming.

And you think I'm the only one to question this? No, I'm just the only one dumb enough to question it publicly.

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Don Keefe:

With over 7,000 views, I can tell you that that there are way more people than just the PY regulars watching this. I have gotten calls from Buick guys, Mopar guys, Pure Stock guys. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Interesting......

I wonder how THEY heard of this obscure thread....on a Pontiac board, no less.



I'm not sure what the purpose of mentioning this is. Is it supposed to make me feel even more on the wrong side of the issue?

But, I've gotta tell you; if I was concerned with how my opinions would be viewed by a bunch of clowns I've never even heard of, I'd have never posted.

[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"No, I'm just the only one dumb enough to question it publicly."

Quote:

"I'm not sure what the purpose of mentioning this is. Is it supposed to make me feel even more on the wrong side of the issue?

But, I've gotta tell you; if I was concerned with how my opinions would be viewed by a bunch of clowns I've never even heard of, I'd have never posted."

"For what, Pops? For questioning the authenticity of a car whose history was, and still largely is, unsubstantiated?

Don't hold your breath, 'cause an apology for asking questions of this nature ain't gonna be forthcoming."

Nothing wrong with asking questions, Sonny.

It is the "Tank/Brick Wall" technique you use. Had a boss like you one time. He believed
in the "Tank" principal too. Why waste time going around the obstacle when you can plow right over it? Wasted a lot of people's time repairing the damage he did. Could have
found out the same answers by just asking the "right" people. Too lazy to investigate
properly though.

He never apologized for anything either, too full of himself to ever admit he was wrong.

But enough about him and his history.

You are right about one thing though Sonny, you can really put a large foot in your mouth sometimes!

Like watching the guy eating eggs, can he get a few more in there? Can Scott get a bigger
foot in his mouth the next time? Stay tuned on as the PY Forum turns!

I guess it comes with old age, being able to ADMIT when you are a dumb ***** sometimes and
then being able to move on. You will get there eventually Sonny, we all have!

Pops!

[Tom Vaught]

Quote by Pont406:

"I know the complete aluminum front end on this car , came from Bruce Fulper, as they were NOS parts! Bruce told me, that while at Randy's shop, he saw the old front end parts from this car, they were damaged. he tried to buy one of the fenders to hang on the wall, but, Randy wouldn't sell any of the pieces."

That is not quite a true statement, Pont406, as we are trying to get all of the facts. You are in the same town but not in the same ball park with your info.

Fupper supplied (sold) to Randy a NOS Aluminum Hood, a NOS Thin Steel Bumper, A NOS Lower alance, and Possible NOS (but looked used) Grill Surround. PERIOD! (for $5,000).

There are a lot more parts that go into a 63 Tempest front end.

When the car came to Tiemann from Randy/ (Dave Johnson) it had the following:

1) A potentially original SD left front fender with lots of small holes in the lower area where someone tried to do some repair with a body dent puller.

2) An Aluminum Hood with a large hood scoop opening and a large scoop mounted.

3) An INTACT VIN tag on the car body (that has never been removed, modified, or cut out and replaced) that matches the VIN posted by Don K.

4) An Intact data plate on the firewall (that has not been removed, altered, etc).

5) A aluminum Front end

6) Aluminum Radiator support

7) Plexiglas windshield that had never been removed (stock on SD Tempests) still with white
paint under the other paint.

8) Bucket Seats. Tempest Wagons came with bench seats stock. The original mounts for the
bucket seats are still original in the car. ONLY SD Tempest Wagons got the Buckets and only SD LeMans Coupes got the buckets to my understanding. The wagon is a SD Wagon.

9) Thin Steel Rear Bumper

10) NO SEAM SEALER ANYWHERE in the car including the drip rails which always has the sealer (in production vehicles).

Some of the parts that were changed during the restoration:

1) The SD Engine naturally as Joe DeNick ripped off the original SD engine.

2) The transaxle

3) 3 doors on the vehicle with better pieces.

4) New Hood, right fender, etc from the Fulper sale

5) Inner fender supports as one on the roght was damaged (maybe from as far back as the deer accident, the left replaced due to having been butchered during a header install at one time.

6) Bucket seats recovered as well as the rest of the interior.

7) A new front windshield.

My point is the basic car is as was owned by Garfinkel, Johnson, Blair.

Hope this helps.

A lot of good info here Mongo.

Tom V.

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

#3 and #4:

Says whom?

What kind of radiator was the car delivered with, and what kind of radiator did it have when it was raced?

[Tom Vaught]

I was hoping you would reply that way, about #3 and #4, Sonny!

Here's your chance to be the hero if you really think you are right about this deal.

I talked to Scott Tiemann and he said that he would remove ALL OF THE PAINT down to the bare
metal on the car in the VIN and Data Plate locations (several feet not inches) and you can
personally inspect the car (and anyone else too), at a Pontiac show like Norwalk. If the parent metal has never been touched (welded like a VIN switch) anywhere around the VIN/ Data Plate, You pay for the repairs!

All you have to do is pay Jean Williams and Scott Tiemann for the restoration on the car, again. Someone posted that was about $350K Chump change for you Sonny!

Time to go "ALL IN" or shut your trap about this deal.

Your move, Sonny!

Tom V.

There will probably be a civil suit filed, that you will have to cover too, so you better make it 1/2 million if you lose.

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

Like I said:

#3 & #4:

Says whom?



You still didn't answer my question.

Removing paint?

What's that going to prove? I wouldn't be be able to tell the difference anyway.

Civil suit?

Snicker.

"Your honor, I am suing because he made me prove the car that I restored was real."



I now have to pay $350,000?

For a Lamborghini Diablo?

For a Pontiac station wagon?



I think Gartzman just called. My wife said some guy with a Midwest accent said he's suing me because I said his SD GP was a fake.

[Tom Vaught]

After a LONG discussion with Mr. Misus, he feels that he can't be held responsible for his
opinion on the car.

He also said that he is interested in the history before the car was returned to Union Park
and the 1964 paperwork Don Keefe provide was issued.

The deal is he has a friend who saw the car in a junk yard, (with body damage), who also has an
opinion. His friends opinion is that the damaged car was not worth anything in 1964, especially
with Joe DeNick grabbing the SD engine, therefore the car cannot be the real car because why
would someone want the car.

I personally wish I would have not purchased my 64 GTO convertible sometimes and used the money to buy IBM stock! LOL! People thought that stock was not worth much either in 1964!

So we have Scott's friend who has an opinion that why would someone want a damaged Tempest
therefore the vehicle Randy owned has to be a fake. Not much of an argument in my mind.

I am still going with Don Keefe, Jean Williams, Scott Tiemann, Dave Johnson, and others who
say otherwise. Sorry Scott!

Tom V.

[Brian Baker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom Vaught:
Quote:

"I never made any claim of impartiality. You pissed on my friend's grave and I took it personally."

I concur on that statement. Randy Williams was a good man and this BS has served nothing constructive. The "Inner Circle" knew of the valid title and never gave it a second thought about any wrong doing. Don's posting makes it worldwide knowledge now. FORMAL APOLOGY time, Sonny!

Quote:

"It would still be interesting to be able to document the cars history when DeNick owned it and lost it, and perhaps in doing so, it would shed some light on why these dealerships entered the practice of titling the cars in their names before resale."

Brian, at least in Michigan where my uncle's dealerships were, the Dealer HAD TO POSSESS the title of any vehicle on his lot, by law, and if an state investigator found a vehicle on his lot without one there was hell to pay.

I kept a 65 GTO and a 66 GTO (I owned) at my uncles Pontiac dealership for a few days and had to remove the cars when it became obvious that they were not there for repair but because I was "storing" them on his lot. I kept them inside the dealership for a couple of days until I found a new home for them to stay at.

Hope this helps.

Tom V.

I love this sig by CRAZY RAY:

"If you act like an ass don't be insulted if people ride you." Words of Wisdom, Sonny! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tom, I just thought of something else that pigeon hole's the ***** out of Scott's theory on why dealerships don't (and won't) title a car in their own name, particularly where a used vehicle is concerned.

All retail businesses, regardless of state, pay some sort of inventory tax. In the case of a car lot, how else would they provide proof of posession for inventory?

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

Tom:

What I said is that the stating of opinions is not an actionable offense.

My previous statements also questioned whether the car was ever returned to Union Park. My unanswered questions sought to seek help in explaining them. Thus far, they have remained unanswered.

As I have stated previously, it's obvious that people involved in this car either can not or will not answer them.

My friend's opinion is that the car was worth far less than it was new. So much so, that it would not have made economic sense for Union Park to repurchase.

I've already asked my detractors to do the math, and to substantiate why Union Park would lose money on a repossessed car.

Thus far, my detractors have failed to do so.

I've laid out my reasons for asking these questions and in three days, I have heard nothing but crickets chirping.

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brian Baker:All retail businesses, regardless of state, pay some sort of inventory tax. In the case of a car lot, how else would they provide proof of posession for inventory? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Precisely. Thank you for proving my point. They would not want titles in their name for precisely the reason you just mentioned.

They provide proof of possession through a company that sponsors their floor plan. In most cases, that company holds the open title, because they also finance(read: OWN) the vehicle.

Besides, that actually makes you think the dealership owns ANY vehicle that they sell?

Next.