[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

I just now ran across this thread.

A tid bit for interest, there is a mystery that developed.

A personal friend sent back his 9.5-inch custom Tri-Shield Performance (TSP) torque converter for adjustment, it was stalling much higher than expected. It was not spot on for his specific combination. His converter was painted Pontiac Blue. After the work was performed he received back another converter painted a different color. In addition the new or reworked converter was shipped back directly to him from another company, not from TSP.

A FWIW if interested, John who helps maintain my car works with Ultimate Converter Concepts for custom torque converter. Lenny who started that company was good friends years ago with Kriss at Continental converters

https://www.ultimateconverter.com/

Things that make one go hmmmm?

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

I just now ran across this thread.

A tid bit for interest, there is a mystery that developed.

A personal friend sent back his 9.5-inch custom Tri-Shield Performance (TSP) torque converter for adjustment, it was stalling much higher than expected. It was not spot on for his specific combination. His converter was painted Pontiac Blue. After the work was performed he received back another converter painted a different color. In addition the new or reworked converter was shipped back directly to him from another company, not from TSP.

A FWIW if interested, John who helps maintain my car works with Ultimate Converter Concepts for custom torque converter. Lenny who started that company was good friends years ago with Kriss at Continental converters

https://www.ultimateconverter.com/

Steve,
Just a couple of WAG on my part.

They striped the paint off of the converter cut it open did the work welded it closed and repainted it with whatever color they had on hand.

Tri-Shield Performance (TSP) farms out they torque converter work.

Stan

[Steve C.]

It was shipped to him painted black.

Jim Weise owner Tri-Shield Performance(TSP) ...... " engine builder who also sells converters (his own words)."

https://www.trishieldperformance.com/



.

[Cliff R]

"I just now ran across this thread.

A tid bit for interest, there is a mystery that developed.

A personal friend sent back his 9.5-inch custom Tri-Shield Performance (TSP) torque converter for adjustment, it was stalling much higher than expected. It was not spot on for his specific combination. His converter was painted Pontiac Blue. After the work was performed he received back another converter painted a different color. In addition the new or reworked converter was shipped back directly to him from another company, not from TSP.

A FWIW if interested, John who helps maintain my car works with Ultimate Converter Concepts for custom torque converter. Lenny who started that company was good friends years ago with Kriss at Continental converters

https://www.ultimateconverter.com/"

What's the "mystery" Steve?

Every buy a part that didn't make the grade? I've tested enough converters to easily fill the bed of a one ton pick-up truck, but will spare the details.

I've had several customers bought Lenny converters that absolutely HATED them. Do I go "public" with the information.....NO.....the water is muddy enough with that topic and for sure someone using one that likes it will get their panties all wadded up and turn the water to more mud.

Have had a couple of customers hate the excellent Continental 10" units and to date have sold two TSP converters that the owners returns claiming they were "turds".

In contrast I've had hundreds and hundreds of DIRECT reports from folks who absolutely love them.

I actually tested them here just like I did the Continental units that Kris was offering. He sent several prototypes here and I gave him DIRECT feedback on them, changes made, test again, and we came up with some really nice versions of the "famous" Jim Hand unit with stall speeds available clear up to 4400rpms. We called that unit the "poor mans race converter". They really weren't that bad on the street either.

Here is a recent email I got from a customer we sold a 9.5" custom built TSP converter to replace a converter we had custom built for his combo that he was NOT pleased with:


Cliff


thought I would give you an update. last weekend was our first chance to get to the track this year.


converter is working great. only 250rpm more on the street than the old XXXXXXXXXX converter and it`s really woken the car up on the 60ft. before was normally 1.60 now it`s 1.52 and pulls the wheels up. ran into a head wind all weekend but car still went it`s quickest at 10.90. should see some 10.8`s without the wind.


thanks again for your help with this.


XXXX

[Stan Weiss]

Interesting how different people read the same message and come away with different meanings.

Steve,
Thanks for the PM. That sound just about like I was thinking it happened.

Stan

[Steve C.]

Cliff, It was only a tid bit for interest.

I had an accident in early Feb that required serious surgery and then inpatient rehab at another hospital. I just got home last Saturday, so I'm out of the loop on things around here.

Anyway, last time we spook on the phone you were retiring from doing carburetor work and only going to be selling your carb rebuilding parts. I presume that is your business situation now.
I'm aware while you were dealing with TSP you were pleased with their product and results. I'm not suggesting there converter source does not do quality work. Like all good company's sometimes adjustments might be necessary.
Now that your out of the business I see no reason people should not deal with them.

Also, I only mentioned UCC if the fellow here was interested because Lenny was good friends years ago with Kriss at Continental converters. It was not necessarily a recommendation.


.

[Cliff R]

I get it Steve, just wanted to clear things up, the message was well understood.

No "mystery", and who really gives a chit what color your new converter is, blue, black, orange, pink, I don't think it's visible standing outside the car anyplace.

For the record, I am still in business, just retired from carb rebuilding and restoration.

Still selling carburetor parts, rebuild kits, and custom Quadrajet rebuild kits with tuning parts exactly for the application. Selling TSP converters as well, and a LOT of the 9.5" units with the multiple disc TCC's for 4L80E and other OD transmissions where the end user wants a really strong converter and still employ the RCC. The plan is right now to sell parts and such for at least two more years.

Going from memory here and I may not be talking about the same converter but we sent one to a customer in Texas or somewhere close to there. It was for a heavy car with a really "low" compression 455 with WAY too much cam in it. I think it was a really "old" grind from HO Racing or Nunzi, with really long seat timing, over 300 degrees advertised, and in the 240-250 @ .050" range. It's likely that's the converter in question here, but I do remember that the owner hated it, said it didn't couple for chit anyplace. With that said having a "weak" engine and heavy car without much gearing you should be looking at stock full size converters or at most an "L-88" variety.......IMHO.

Anyhow, I've only had two complaints to date so it's a 50/50 guess as to which one it was, but in 50 years who's going to really care anyhow!?.........Cliff

PS: hope you are doing well and make a full recovery, hadn't heard about your accident.......

[Steve C.]

" I am still in business, just retired from carb rebuilding and restoration "

Thanks for that update.

A fwiw, I know after TSP receives their converters, they paint them either 'BUICK RED' or 'PONTIAC BLUE'.
I saw the picture of the blue one you received and posted a picture here in the street section, it was pretty


( I'm doing OK, thanks. But I'm not allowed to drive yet )


.

[Cliff R]

Good news, glad to see things are well with you.

The parts business was more of an accident that something I planned.

The quick version is that I am very meticulous and demand TOP quality components with everything I get involved with, engines builds, transmissions, diff's, carburetors, etc. NOT being happy with quiet a few parts coming from the suppliers I decided to start having them made. I'm up to around 30 parts and counting. I simply filled in the gaps where parts being produced were NOT making the grade. Ethanol was a big push for me in that direction, it HATES rubber, neoprene, nitrile and other components often dubbed "Viton" or "Ethanol Resistant" which are not much more than offshore sourced blue or black silicone, and woln't hold up in this new fuel much longer than it took me to type this! Once I got all the parts we were using to build carbs up to par someone slapped me upside the head one day and said "why aren't you selling parts and kits"........so that's EXACTLY what I started doing, and now it's keeping me WAY busier than I want to be, so I cut everything else we were doing out of the deal and went into a "semi-retirement" mode.

For me that meant going from 14-16 hour days 7 days a week to 5-8 hours a day 4 days a week and half a day on Friday. All the employees are gone as well, so I wear all the hats here.

Anyhow, converter sales have been strong, but we were just handed a major price increase to an already expensive part. The phone went silent when told the last two customers what the new pricing was going to be. I'll also add here before I sit down that when you hire me to do anything, or supply you with something, my mission is to make it the very best part or parts that I know to exist in this industry. I also back them up with tech help if/as needed. Think about that when you buy your carb kit at Pep Boys and wonder back down there to return it and look at the purple haired kid behind the counter.......is he going to be able to help you with much more than how to use the 200 features on your cell phone you didn't know existed?........LOL......Cliff

[77 TRASHCAN]

Cliff,
Thanks, as always!!!
Jeff

[Cliff R]

Jeff, you are most welcome.

One last tid-bit on converters. I've used, tried or tested just about every brand/type out there that I know to exist dating clear back to GER units that were pushed pretty hard shortly after I got into this hobby. Those weren't that great anyplace, but at least those of us that had to fart in their pocket to have a cent could afford one!

B & M used to and may still offer the "Super Holeshot" converter. Those weren't that bad back in the day and lots of folks in these parts used them.

I've had quite a few vehicles brought here for custom tuning that used the Hugh's BOP varieties. Going from memory they offered a 2500 and 3000 stall model. They work OK, but neither one is overly impressive that I've seen. They are inexpensive and I've never heard of one breaking. So if you are on a tight budget and just want a decent converter to move your car around without butt-tons of slippage anyplace they may be something to look at...........

[Sun Tuned]

Ordered some carb stuff from Ol Cliff and a converter back about a month ago.
Stuff came blinding fast as it always does. Thanks Cliff!

Haven’t put the converter in just as yet as we are finishing up assembly of the engine, but I promise you I’m not real concerned about this converter the least bit. It looks and feels quite the serious piece. Sure, you can’t see inside but I’m thinking this will work just fine.

Here shortly, we will know.

[Cliff R]

Thanks.

The TSP converters are a bit more "adjustable" than the 10" Continental units. The very first one I had sent here to install and test wasn't much bigger than the soup bowl I had my lunch in earlier that day. I IMMEDIATELY picked up the phone all called Jim and before I could get any words out he said "no, it's not the wrong converter". We installed it and did some test driving, turned the vehicle into an absolute BEAST where you'd have to drop it off a floor jack at WOT with the old converter to "squeak" the tires.

I noticed improved torque multiplication compared to the Continental 10" units, but still very well coupled for "normal" driving. I always do an "against the brakes" test, and a high gear pull from about 25-30mph with the downshift solenoid disconnected (TH400). It passed both of those tests with flying colors.

I was seeing about 200 more RPM's against the brakes before the tires would spin and a solid 3400rpm's at WOT against high gear (this will duplicate flash stall on the starting line with good traction). It was maybe 200 rpm's "looser" for normal driving than a similar Continental 10" unit. I was pleased and the owner of the car was doing back-flips after the first test drive........so I put a deal together with Jim at TSP and started selling them............

[AG]

I agree, the 10" Continentals aren't very adjustable. I built a 461 with an OF HR cam for a customer for a '68 GTO with a TH400 and had the trans rebuilt by a local trans shop owner who runs a 10.0 Firebird. I had read numerous stories of how good the Jim Hand special was so I called Continental and couldn't get in touch with them. So I called Cliff and got one from him. Put it in and it was very slushy, so much so you couldn't feel it go into first gear. Step on the gas and the rpms went up to 2500-2800 and stayed there with every shift until the car got over 40 mph, there was no rpm drop between shifts. Finally took it out and had UCC (Lenny) restall it since Continental was no longer and had him tighten it up. Came back with marginal improvement. $650 plus shipping and another $400 to have in re-stalled and it still is slushy. I bought a $300 Redneck 9.5" converter for my racecar that flashes to 5000 rpm and has 7% slip across the stripe and the car lurches when shifted into first. Just two more data points about converters.

[kyle_blake]

I am in canada and gosh well over 10 years ago, maybe 15 when I first got on this board I heard about these converters. I ordered one .... for my 400... pulled out whatever was in my gto.. it stalled at 3000 before and drove around without slipping at lights at all. "tight" and i still run the jim hand one from them. Unless I do a brake stand you'd never know behind my engine it had a stall converter over stock. then again I don't really stab the throttle or leave the lights off the flash... so what do i know, lol.

[Formulajones]

My dealings with converters, grab a coffee. This is the short version.

Back when I was dealing with Continental Kris told me they really didn't have what everyone called a "Jim Hand Special", that was more or less what some people were nick naming it. Plus the 13" cores those were based off of had dried up a long time before Kris even went out of business. The 10" cores were what you got for the last few years he was around, and honestly those are much more efficient anyway from my experience.

I've had a 10" Continental in one of my cars since the early 2000's which was a "P2" version and had always been super happy with it. This was long before I was a forum member here.
Drove very nice around town, very snug with crisp shifts and could hardly even tell it was there. At the track however it would flash up around 3600 and run 1.5x 60 foot times. One of the best converters I ever had in that car, and I had 4 or 5 converters before that one. The car ran it's best ET's and MPH's with that Continental.

Dad had been running the same Continental around the same time frame in his car but it was dubbed a "P3" and it did in fact drive around a bit looser than mine. Worked okay at the track with very similar 60 foot times, it just wasn't as efficient on the street. Used it for years as it was but I always wondered if the car had more to offer. I always felt his car would have worked better with the P2 I had in my car.

Fast forward to the bigger engine making over 700 ft lbs and of course that P3 Continental converter turned to mush in dads car. Called Kris and wanted something tighter. This was about the time he was getting ready to close the doors. He explained all his good core parts had dried up and was using internal parts that I later found out just wasn't as good as before. Told Kris we were planning to drop the 3.73 gear down to maybe a 3.31. He did build a tight 10" converter and stated that was as snug as he could build it and warned to not run anything less than a 3.50 gear out back or it would turn into a very mushy converter behind this engine.
That one worked okay at the track but still had a lot of slippage on the top end, and really didn't couple all that well on the street, and that was with 3.73 gears..
Dropped to a 3.42 gear and suddenly that converter just wasn't going to do it anymore. Drove horrible on the street with way too much slippage, 3000 rpm was barely 60 mph with a 28" tire and made a ton of trans heat. That converter had to go. By then Kris closed his doors.

Called Cliff and got a TSP converter done. Have to admit, and Cliff will tell ya, they missed the first try. Not uncommon sometimes. Tried a mechanical diode as well, recommended by TSP, and that didn't work out well. One trip to the track and that converter had a problem that I suspect was with that mechanical diode. Sent that one back for a restall and they decided to start from scratch and build a new one. No mechanical diode this time per Cliff's recommendation. This one worked out much better than the first, drove better, more snug. However never got track time with it before dad decided to switch to a 4L80E.

This go around since Hughes was building the 4L80E he decided to just have them build a lockup converter, give them a shot since Hughes is local to us. Steve assured me they would build a tight one to start and then loosen if needed, and stated that was a better way to go about it. I have to say this is the tightest converter that has been in dad's car to date. It drives around town beautifully, nice gear changes with no noticeable slippage, and it now actually pulls the engine rpm down on upshifts and accelerates the car, something other converters never did. It almost drives like a bone stock converter. It does push up to about 2500-ish when holding the brakes, before it acts like it really wants to push the car, so there is a converter hiding under there. It will be getting it's first track outing with this converter later this month. Best I can tell it may flash up around 3200 or so on a prepped track with good traction so we'll get some data logs on that and see how it does. It may actually accelerate the car down the track rather than just acting like a one speed transmission with the shift light on the whole pass.

Last year I installed a 4L80E in my own car, before I did dad's car, and with Continental gone, I didn't want to try a Hughes at that time. So I contacted Cliff for a TSP triple disc lockup. Have to say I've been very happy with this particular converter in this car. It drives just a pinch loose at very light throttle, under 10%, but as you get more aggressive with the throttle it couples more, shifts get more aggressive as the converter seems to grab more, and really seems to work well. It will flash up in the mid 3,000's when pushed hard, and then lockup when I want and drive like a stocker. Very happy with this converter in this particular car. It does a nice job of pulling the engine down about 700 rpm on WOT upshifts, and I have the option of locking the converter at the track in any gear during the pass to see how that affects things. Just something else to play with.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

I actually tested them here just like I did the Continental units that Kris was offering.


Cliff

Cliff how did the TSP compare to the Continental unit in your car? Driveability? Trap slippage? 60 foot? Fall back? MPG? Any other noticeable differences?

[Cliff R]

The 9.5" TSP units will have more torque multiplication and quicker 60' times with good traction. Remarkably they are still very well coupled for "normal" driving. I can get them to "flash" up a bit quicker and couple hundred more RPM's than a similar !0" Continental unit and they show just a tad more slippage on top end.

One of the best features of the 9.5" TSP converters is that they have more options and are more "adjustable".

When a customer orders one I take down all the details and the intended use of the vehicle and input that information so the converter is built to custom specs. They are able to make very small changes and have multiple options for internals so the end result is truly a custom piece set up for what you are doing.

Since the two main figures involved here, myself and Jim at TSP have a LOT of experience building engines, transmissions, diff's, setting up suspension systems for drag racing, and seat time at the track we are giving you are best efforts. For the most part the results have been excellent, but like anything else with this hobby there are just things out there beyond your control and you might be off just a bit for one reason or another.

As I've mentioned before, I sold Continental converters for almost 20 years, only had a couple of folks that weren't happy with them. So far with the TSP units the ratio is about the same, the vast majority absolutely loving them, a few not so much.

For sure this converter thing is not a main stay for me, never has been. For the time I spend taking an order then relaying all the information and coming up with a plan, I'm probably loosing money not doing something else in the shop........FWIW......

[Formulajones]

That's a good explanation as to why and how you should custom spec a converter for your application.

I used to hear it a lot how people want a "Jim Hand Special".

Well first, there really is no such thing. Jim had Kris build him a custom converter to work with his combo, something tight that coupled well in a very heavy wagon that didn't have much gear to speak of. It got nick named Jim Hand's converter. In reality Kris had a nice recipe to build a converter that worked very well in various different combinations. We've used a bunch of them and not one was built the same.

Second, while Kris could duplicate the converter that Jim used, it isn't going to work the same in your combo. You can build your engine just like Jim, put it in your Firebird or GTO with a different rear gear and that converter is going to act completely different. That's where I believe we read about a few that aren't happy with the performance of that converter. Much better off as Cliff explained, to lay out your combo and have the converter builder custom build something specifically for that application. Then tweak it from there if need be.


To answer the OP's question, if it were me, based off what I've experienced, since that 13" was tight for you with a 400, and you are now jumping up to a 461, I would leave that converter in the car for now. It will most certainly loosen up with the bigger engine that is going to make a broader torque curve, and more of it. Maybe after driving the car for a while and getting a feel for it, you can make a better decision as to whether you want to change it up. If that ends up being the case I'd start with a new converter and leave the 13" unit in one piece. If the new converter adventure turns into just that, you'll always have the 13" piece to fall back on and drive the car with minimal down time.

And to be quite honest, I don't get hung up on what a converter company says the stall is going to be or have a set number in my head that I'm looking for. It's more like a "range" to shoot for and that range will change depending on a ton of variables. Even elevation changes and/or DA at the track which affects power output will affect the converter and change how it acts. The real trick is getting the converter to flash up to an rpm range that suits the engine well (that seems to be the easy part) While still maintaining a nice driving coupled converter with minimal slippage while driving normal (that's the hard part) There always seems to be a little bit of a trade off either way.

[AG]

In the case of my Continental converter I got from Cliff, I explained the motor/trans/rear gear and car usage to Cliff and he sent me what he thought was appropriate for the application. With all the accolades about the 10" Continentals, I expected my experience to be similar as others and I did not feel like it was very risky. I was very surprised the converter was nothing like the experience everyone was having. Even after UCC tightened it up, it's still slushy. Just disappointing after spending so much money. I'll have to look up what the numbers are.