[78w72]

Originally Posted by Overkillphil

I too have done plenty of "research" as have many on this and other sites. Bobstheoilguy is a good site but is just that, a website full of opinions. Some good and some not. That site was pushing Schaefer oil one time when I was a frequent visitor.

What motor oil does that site manufacturer and sell? There seems to be plenty of armchair oil industry experts on forums these days. Some of them treat oil discussions like a religious or political argument. Apparently these armchair petroleum engineers know more than the people making the stuff. If diesel oil is just as good or better in a gasoline engine, why does it exist at all? Just have motor oil for gas and diesel.

not trying to start a religious argument at all... im stating facts based on actual oil anlysis & conversations with some of the largest oil companies like valvoline & shell. i emailed with them back when all the zddp hype started. i base my comments on what they told me & what many long time members at BITOG have researched & passed on... guys who know way more about oil than a casual member with an opinion... kind of like your opinion saying that, "It's designed for heavy duty low revving diesels. Just because a gas engine hasn't failed with it isn't proof it's the right thing to use." what is that statement based on? no facts, just your "armchair oil expert" opinion.

i posted facts about zddp content in some HDEO oils & other facts from the "people making the stuff." you can form your own opinion on that info if you want, but doesnt change the fact that they are facts, not opinions. yes the BITOG website is full of opinions, but just like here, there are quite a few resident gurus that have far more knowledge & experience on the subjects we post about. there are many "cliffs, jim hands & mr p-bodies" on that site, just like all the other forums out there, you just have to sift through the opinions.

bottom line is there are many options for oil based on your engines needs & yes everyone has their strong opinions on what to use & thats fine... however if an oil meets the same API standards as another oil, its equally qualified to do the same job, regardless of the title you want to give it.

so before this turns into another oil argument filled with opinions & myths i will stick with my last post based on the facts i've aquired from reputable sources. & firebob can use any of the suggested oils in this thread without any issues, would be nice to know what cam & lifters hes using & the engines intended purpose as well. if its got a .470 lift small duration cam & weak springs & will never see about 5000rpm, i highly doubt he needs to run VR-1 racing oil or anything like that.

[Blued and Painted]

"armchair oil industry experts". I resemble that remark.

Always wondered How much synthetic was in the Synthetic blends. 50%-10%-, one drop? So i decided to blend my own.
Figured out later the additive packages are completely different for conventional vs. synthetic. So once mixed/diluted, there weren't enough additives to support either oil type.

So, for the beaters, i buy a zero or 5w-30 ALREADY BLENDED in the winter for the -30 degree mornings .
Still dont know what percentage synthetic is in those blends.

[78w72]

blued: i asked that question to valvoline as well... they told me "about" 25% synth in their blends. used to say that on their website too under the FAQ's. havent looked in a couple years so not sure if that info is still there.

[TedRamAirII]

I would keep away from anything labeled "energy conserving". MOST all the oils do not have any or very little ZDDP because it fouls the Cat Converters. The way I heard about Semi Synthetic or a BLEND, it was very vague. If it has 1 drop of full synthetic, they can claim it s "blend". I would use a high zddp 5w30 for initial break in, then change it after 100 miles. Then change it again, using the best filter you can buy, no 1.99 walmart specials. After 1000 miles, change the oil again using what you want to use, but always use a top quality filter. I wish oil filters had a little button like a turkey to tell you its bypassing, then you would know when to replace the filter. Seems like the oil ratings today on the side of the can, dont mean what they used to. I really look at APPROVED specs. Modern GM engines specify dexos oil, but they are having lifter issues too. ; )

[moparcolt]

I built 12 engines last year, put VR-1 30wt Inot all of them.
No problem with cams.
I lube the heck out of my engines while putting them together, and prime them all before firing them the first time.

[Firebob]

Ok the question was asked so I'll reply. The cam is a Voodoo 702. .550@ 1.6 on intakes/.550@1.5 ex. Springs are 128# seat/ 335# open. Break in is the only area I was really concerned with. I plan to use a break in additive and drop the oil shortly after its done so I didn't want to use an overly expensive oil if I didn't have to because I'm just going to toss it anyway. But on the other hand, I don't want to chance creating issues by cheaping out on the initial break in either. Sounds like I can get away with an inexpensive middle of the road oil for beak in because I'll be complimenting with additives anyway. And then running a decent oil with some ZZDP for regular use.

[moparcolt]

My firebird 467 Cid motor has a .572 lift cam with 1.6 roller rockers. 245°duration.
Used the VR1 30 we for break in and the first couple oil changes then switched to mobile one racing oil just because it sits a lot and didn't want to be changing it all the time.

[TedRamAirII]

Originally Posted by Firebob

Ok the question was asked so I'll reply. The cam is a Voodoo 702. .550@ 1.6 on intakes/.550@1.5 ex. Springs are 128# seat/ 335# open. Break in is the only area I was really concerned with. I plan to use a break in additive and drop the oil shortly after its done so I didn't want to use an overly expensive oil if I didn't have to because I'm just going to toss it anyway. But on the other hand, I don't want to chance creating issues by cheaping out on the initial break in either. Sounds like I can get away with an inexpensive middle of the road oil for beak in because I'll be complimenting with additives anyway. And then running a decent oil with some ZZDP for regular use.

Sounds like a good plan, but dont skimp out on a good filter. You dont want a cheap filter letting metal through.

[78w72]

thanks for the cam info bob. you are definitely above the "mild" cam specs so removing inner springs would be a benefit. however i still feel a good oil like delo 400 with its 1200+ppm zddp is more than sufficient for your break in & is about $12 per gallon at walmart.

again i agree with all the other oils mentioned, but like you said, no need for $8-$10/qt oil if it will be dumped after 30 minutes of run time... the cam break in additive & good cam assembly lube is whats more important along with proper prep for initial fire, prime the oil, have timing close to spec, & fuel primed to pump & carb bowl filled. should fire right up & have a trouble free cam break in. best of luck!

[David Jones]

Originally Posted by lust4speed

I listed this article on PY a few months ago without much response from anyone. Long read, but very interesting. The guy's testing gives very different results from what we normally read: Oil article

It helps to skip over the individual oil analysis and read the bulk of the article, and then come back and spend time on the listed compositions.

Interesting read. I use Mobil 1 10W40 High Mileage which, of course, was not tested.

[moparcolt]

I think most mobile one doesn't have the zinc addative, but their racing oil does

[David Jones]

My upper end is completely roller, so I'm not so worried about zinc.

[Overkillphil]

Most shelf oils have reduced ZDDP, not eliminated. As a sidebar, when I last spoke with a Rotella Tech from Shell (after the reformulation to a CJ4 rating) I was informed the ZDDP level was between 800-900. That was all he would commit to. So again, the diesel oil info. people are relying upon has mostly changed or become obsolete. And that's not even addressing the different additive packages in diesel oil (not including dual rated diesel/gas types) which address the needs/issues of a Diesel engine.

Buying diesel oil just because it has more ZDDP is not a great choice, and given the availability of specialty SI oils with plenty of ZDDP, that would seem to indicate that the most obvious reasons for choosing to use diesel motor oil in a gas engine are that its cheap and easy to obtain.

I suppose that doesn't matter for those running a junkyard engine or similar, but it makes no sense at all to spend thousands and in some cases 10k or more on an engine and then become a cheapskate on the oil. To each their own I suppose.

[dataway]

Shouldn't any properly assembled engine break-in trouble free with just about any kind of oil (except the slipperiest synthetic) ?

I remember I used to use a bench buffing wheel on the lower edges of new hyd lifters and on the edges of a new cam lobes to take the sharp edge off (on a microscopic level), because I was worried about break-in issues with those parts. Have no idea if it actually worked, never had a failure with or without doing it.

Anyone ever actually seen a break-in mechanical failure due to the type of oil used?

Only thing close I have ever seen was a vintage motorcycle race engine that refused to seat the rings after being run-in easy and full of premium racing synthetic. Simple re-hone fixed that.
JohnnyB

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by moparcolt

I think most mobile one doesn't have the zinc addative, but their racing oil does

All Mobil 1 oils have ZDDP in them. The amount varies by formulation.

This link should take you to a PDF chart showing Zinc and Phosphorus content for each flavor of Mobil 1:

https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/.....pecs-guide.pdf

Mob1 0W40, 5W50, the High Mileage 5W20, 5W30, 10W30 and 10W40 all have 1000 PPM PH and 1100 PPM Zinc

Their 15W50, 5W40 Turbo Diesel, and all their "Racing" versions have higher ZDDP levels.

[Overkillphil]

X2! Link not working though, try this one:
https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us...pecs-guide.pdf

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Overkillphil

Most shelf oils have reduced ZDDP, not eliminated. As a sidebar, when I last spoke with a Rotella Tech from Shell (after the reformulation to a CJ4 rating) I was informed the ZDDP level was between 800-900. That was all he would commit to. So again, the diesel oil info. people are relying upon has mostly changed or become obsolete. And that's not even addressing the different additive packages in diesel oil (not including dual rated diesel/gas types) which address the needs/issues of a Diesel engine.

Buying diesel oil just because it has more ZDDP is not a great choice, and given the availability of specialty SI oils with plenty of ZDDP, that would seem to indicate that the most obvious reasons for choosing to use diesel motor oil in a gas engine are that its cheap and easy to obtain.

I suppose that doesn't matter for those running a junkyard engine or similar, but it makes no sense at all to spend thousands and in some cases 10k or more on an engine and then become a cheapskate on the oil. To each their own I suppose.

phil: you & others make some good points but incase you or anyone else havent looked at some VOA or UOA's (virgin oil & used oil analysis) of diesel oils, their additive packs are excellent for ANY engine. they are not just for "needs & issues of a diesel engine"... the API ratings are the exact same as for car oils, yes diesel oils may have some "extra" stuff in them to benefit a diesel engine, but that doesnt mean they arent designed or perfectly ok for a gasoline engine. they are all excellent oils with very good additive packs. i dont claim to know what each additive does or why its in there, i leave that to the experts that understand the results of the analysis.

your conversation with rotella simply told you the max level of zddp they are supopsed to adhere to & can disclose, in the analysis i posted earlier rotella showed low 1000ppm, pretty close to 800-900 they said. delo is above 1200ppm... the last numbers i read said 1300ppm is the target for best protection of flat tappet cams, more than that is a waste or can cause issues, & as i mentioned, less than that can be compensated with other things in the additive pack like moly or new long lasting zddp like valvoline has. the actual number isnt as important as it was with older oils, & the cam size has a lot to do with whats really needed.

case in point: my jeep cherokee with 180k miles has a flat tappet cam... i use the cheapest oil that meets the current API specs.. that happens to be walmarts supertech 10w30 with ~800ppm, sometimes their high mileage option... my cam & lifters are doing just fine & the rest of the jeep will fall apart around the engine before a cam failure because i didnt use bradd penn oil or add some unknown amount of a zddp additive. same with millions of other older cars with FT cams on the road,,, they dont use specialty oils & their cams are doing just fine.

fact: please read the labels on diesel oils, this is directly from my bottles of delo-400- "meets or exceeds all warranties for gasoline, diesel & turbo charged engines" the very first engine type listed is GASOLINE... i hope that clears up this debate on diesel oils not being ok for gasoline engines!

& its not a matter of being a "cheapskate" at all, just beacuse they are readily available & priced decent doesnt make them poor quality oils. why pay for a brands advertising & fancy bottles or labels?... if the oil meets a certain spec it doesnt matter the brand or advertising hype that makes uneducated people think they need that oil or thats its "better" than another brand that doesnt spend millions in advertising.

this thread has answered firebobs question, hopefully we can wrap up the debate on if a oil is called "diesel" it has to be used in a diesel engine & wont work ok in a gasoline engine. or cause some kind of damage. or that a certain brand is better than another... i will make this suggestion again, if you have questions on oil, join BITOG & ask those questions & make statements like "MOST all energy conserving oils dont have any zddp" or "diesel oil is only designed for low revving diesel engines" you will get factual information & get your opinions corrected by experts. just like PY has some experts or guys that may have worked on a pontiac assembly line or engineers that know far more than the average member, just the same, BITOG has experts & "tribologists" (studies of the principals of lubrication, friction & wear) that know the facts about oils. no hard feelings to those who seem to disagree with my comments, however i dont usually post my opinions on things unless opinions are asked for. sorry for the long posts, just trying to provide accurate info based on reputable sources.

[Blued and Painted]

This by Brad Penn:
“There is such a thing as too much ZDDP. ZDDP is surface aggressive, and too much can be a detriment. ZDDP fights for the surface, blocking other additive performance. Acids generated due to excessive ZDDP contact will “tie-up” detergents thus encouraging corrosive wear. ZDDP effectiveness plateaus, more does NOT translate into more protection. Only so much is utilized. We don’t need to saturate our oil with ZDDP. “

This by Rat 540:
Because zinc simply does NOT work that way, no matter what you’ve read and heard a million times. More zinc simply takes longer to be depleted as it is sacrificed and used up while helping protect heavily loaded parts. Therefore, more zinc provides “longer” wear protection, NOT “more” wear protection. So, if someone tells you that you must have a high level of zinc for sufficient wear protection, no matter who they are, or no matter what Company they may represent, DO NOT believe it. Because they are proving that they DO NOT understand how zinc really works, and are only repeating the same old wives’ tale with absolutely NOTHING to back it up.

In order for people to choose an oil that truly provides the best possible wear protection for their engine, they need to select an oil based on its “wear protection capability”, NOT its “zinc level”. Modern API certified oils have reduced zinc/phosphorus levels, and that now absent quantity of zinc/phosphorus has been replaced with alternate anti-wear components that are equal to, or better than zinc/phosphorus. In fact, many of the modern low zinc oils provide BETTER WEAR PROTECTION than many of the traditional high zinc oils, which you will see in the ranking list below.

.

[Squidward]

Originally Posted by Firebob

Ok the question was asked so I'll reply. The cam is a Voodoo 702. .550@ 1.6 on intakes/.550@1.5 ex. Springs are 128# seat/ 335# open. Break in is the only area I was really concerned with. I plan to use a break in additive and drop the oil shortly after its done so I didn't want to use an overly expensive oil if I didn't have to because I'm just going to toss it anyway. But on the other hand, I don't want to chance creating issues by cheaping out on the initial break in either. Sounds like I can get away with an inexpensive middle of the road oil for beak in because I'll be complimenting with additives anyway. And then running a decent oil with some ZZDP for regular use.

I broke in the same cam with Brad Penn 30wt and a Wix filter. I took out the inner springs per cam instructions. I wasn't used to using the Joe Gibbs Driven goo instead of a moly paste on the cam, but I had no problems.

Using the Brad Penn oil as an example, you are only paying an extra $15 vs. regular off the shelf "normal" oil. It sucks to dump any batch of oil after 30 minutes, but that's the game we play.

After break in I used 10w-30 Valvoline and a bottle of Rislone additive for zddp. So far, so good.

I remember the good ol' days when I could do a re-ring job, dump half a quart of whatever oil across the lifters and cam, and call it good.

[Firebob]

A few thoughts...it was my understanding when all this started that the safe level was 1300PPM of zinc needed for FT cam longevity. I guess I just trust that one full bottle of ZZDP will get me there with whatever oil I choose to use.
My spring pressures aren't extreme but I figure they fall in the high end of the spectrum so I want to be cautious.

My next pondering involves weight selection. I've heard it said that they ran straight 30w from the factory but this motor is so far from factory specs that I'm sure there is a better choice. Not to mention oils now are formulated so different. I've always run multi-grade 10/40 or15/40s for the most part. I'm not sure I want my oil thinned out to 10w in a motor I run at high revs for an extended period of time on a road race track. Also, I would think the bigger clearances might require a thicker grade than tight specs. Say, after a motor gets a some hard miles on it.