[grandville455]

I used this one this time, nice chain, comes with bronze bushing too, it was dead on , no reason to advance or use keys...SUM-G6612-B

[z man]

What are your opinions on the Cloyes 3007k kit? fairly cheap around $30. street car 68 400. thnx z man

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by z man

What are your opinions on the Cloyes 3007k kit? fairly cheap around $30. street car 68 400. thnx z man

That's the set I recommended in post #4. But it looks like they went up nearly 5 bucks on Ebay since I last checked. Here's a few links.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cloyes-Gear-...9fb724&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cloyes-Gear-...6cf711&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cloyes-Engin...abfcad&vxp=mtr

O'Reilly's shows 'em for $19.99 + tax.

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/de...2388&ppt=C0141

Rock Auto even has 'em for $17.50, if you can get a free ride for 'em with a larger order.

http://www.rockauto.com/dbphp/x,cata...ES_C3007K.html

By the way, the advance keys are Mr. Gasket #987G & #988G. Jegs has a good description of 'em, but you can probably find a better price. Summit is a hair better.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Mr-Gasket/720/...oductId=748920

http://www.jegs.com/i/Mr-Gasket/720/...oductId=748920

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrg-987g

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrg-988g

[Cliff R]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-V-8-...e9eb04&vxp=mtr

This is the set I use here. There are several different types of the stock sets, Dyna Gear has the iron top sprocket, which is OK. I like the set in the picture with the stronger top sprocket.

The Mopar offset key set has been discontinued for some time. The Mr Gasket offset keys are the only ones currently available that I know of....Cliff

[grivera]

Originally Posted by Singleton

The only thing that summit has is the Mr Gasket 987G 2 degree cam key, which would be 4 degrees at the crank. So if you needed to advance or retard 1 or 2 degrees, it would be useless

Are these keys not accurate?

[Singleton]

Originally Posted by grivera

Are these keys not accurate?

Yes, they are accurate, but only allow 4 degree changes. There are no offset keys currently available that allow smaller adjustments when degreeing a cam, such as 2 degrees.

Let's say your cam is degreed @ a 110 ICL, but you want it at 108. Using the Mr Gasket offset key will allow you to put the ICL at either 114 or 106. Can't get to 108 in this scenario

[Squidward]

Originally Posted by Singleton

Yes, they are accurate, but only allow 4 degree changes. There are no offset keys currently available that allow smaller adjustments when degreeing a cam, such as 2 degrees.

Let's say your cam is degreed @ a 110 ICL, but you want it at 108. Using the Mr Gasket offset key will allow you to put the ICL at either 114 or 106. Can't get to 108 in this scenario

This is exactly what I encountered. Spec'd at 108, came in at 110. Had to play musical sprockets to get it closer. My 2 degree cam key went unused.

[grivera]

Originally Posted by Squidward

This is exactly what I encountered. Spec'd at 108, came in at 110. Had to play musical sprockets to get it closer. My 2 degree cam key went unused.

This is where my confusion comes in- if you had a 2 degree cam key why couldn't you get to 108? If 987G is advertised at 2 degrees, why is it moving the cam 4 degrees? Does 987G advertise 2 crank degrees which equals 4 cam degrees?

[Singleton]

Its advertised as a 2 degree crankshaft key, for chevy I think, and would be fine if it were installed in the crank. But it won't fit a Pontiac crank, only the cam, and the 2 degrees at the cam becomes 4 crankshaft degrees. The discontinued Mopar set had a 1 degree crank key that could be used in a Pontiac cam to get 2 crankshaft degrees.

[mgarblik]

Here we go again Pontiac vendors. Listen-up. We need 1,2,4,8 degree offset woodruff keys for our Pontiacs. You can sell them to the Mopar people too! The only source I know of other than Mr. Gasket, who was just bought by MSD and will likely be also discontinuing stuff like this is factory offset keys from a Mercedes Dealer. They were about $20.00 each last time I bought one several years ago. I would think you vendors could sell them all day for $5.00-7.50 each and probably cost less than .50 to make.

[Cliff R]

I have several dozen parts made for us here for Q-jets that are NLA or custom for what we do. The problem with that deal is that the "buy-in" is typically too high to make it cost effective to produce a new item for sale.

Most of my suppliers require 10,000 as the minimum amount of pieces per order. A few that I've used for over 10 years will do 1000 pieces, but most want more than that.

It is possible to do less quantity, but the amount you end up paying doesn't make it cost effective, or the final price unreasonably high for the type of product being sold.

Then there is the fact that coming up with a "new" item runs the risk of it being copied and sold by someone else. We see a LOT of that sort of thing, and why I've never followed thru with an intake manifold (for example), as I know as soon as I get done with the project it will be copied by someone else, or made available to someone else for less money than I'm paying for them, after putting up all the upfront costs and doing all the work to get the part into production. We've seen a LOT of this sort of thing in recent years, as Wade about it, or myself......FWIW.....Cliff

[grivera]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Here we go again Pontiac vendors. Listen-up. We need 1,2,4,8 degree offset woodruff keys for our Pontiacs. You can sell them to the Mopar people too! The only source I know of other than Mr. Gasket, who was just bought by MSD and will likely be also discontinuing stuff like this is factory offset keys from a Mercedes Dealer. They were about $20.00 each last time I bought one several years ago. I would think you vendors could sell them all day for $5.00-7.50 each and probably cost less than .50 to make.

Do you have the specifics on the Mercedes off-set keys (part#, degree increment, etc.)?

[mgarblik]

I have my notes somewhere, but can't find them easily. I will look again. If I remember right they were 1 and 2 degree.

[mgarblik]

The Mercedes keys are about $15.00 each. 2 degree key #16075-01075664
3 degree key #6202-01075663 5 degree key # 6125-01075661. Available on-line.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Timing sets have been discussed in many threads, so you may want to try a search. In my opinion based on over 40 years of building engines is there is one premium timing set brand, Cloyes Gear Company. They make 8 different sets for any budget and even their least expensive sets are better than any of the Chinese junk out there. I suggest going to their website: www.cloyes.com and spend some time in the high performance catalog. A very high quality set is the 9-3112. It is mid-cost but every set is hand matched and we have used this set at 1500 HP for an entire season and seen right at 1 degree of stretch on the degree wheel. They are an American company with excellent coverage for our old Indians.

Bought this set about 15 years ago. Bought it using a $20-off coupon from Summit, it was priced at about $100 before the discount.

About to put it to use in a mild 350 HP 421 street engine. Figure it will hang in there for the long haul.

I've used the 9-3112 Cloyes chain a few times and have been happy with the durability.

Originally Posted by mgarblik

The Mercedes keys are about $15.00 each. 2 degree key #16075-01075664
3 degree key #6202-01075663 5 degree key # 6125-01075661. Available on-line.

Thanks for the offset key info, I will pass this on to the engine builder to use when he degrees the cam.

[lust4speed]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

The Mercedes keys are about $15.00 each. 2 degree key #16075-01075664
3 degree key #6202-01075663 5 degree key # 6125-01075661. Available on-line.

That would be 2° at the crankshaft for the 2 degree key?

Summit has the Mr. Gasket crankshaft offset key that does measure a true 2° (or at least the one I used). Only problem is this also moves the hub and therefore the timing mark over 2 degrees as well. Then again, the last aftermarket SFI balancer was off 4 degrees and the offset key would have decreased the error in this case. Offset crank Key

[mgarblik]

The Mercedes keys are advertised as Camshaft keys so the changes are in camshaft degrees. They never seem to work out exact with the Mr. Gasket keys, you have to check each time. The best keys I ever used were the Mopar Keys. Too damn bad they are discontinued. If you have an aftermarket crank you can use a combination of keys to really tune it in. the factory cranks with the single big key doesn't give you that option. To be completely honest, I just try to hit my number or 1 degree advanced. Trying to hit the exact number can eat up lots of time and I really doubt it would make any difference unless you were building an engine for pro-stock or engine masters.

[Singleton]

Originally Posted by lust4speed

Summit has the Mr. Gasket crankshaft offset key that does measure a true 2° (or at least the one I used). Only problem is this also moves the hub and therefore the timing mark over 2 degrees as well. Then again, the last aftermarket SFI balancer was off 4 degrees and the offset key would have decreased the error in this case. Offset crank Key

You used that Mr Gasket 987G key in the crank on a Pontiac? The stock Pontiac crank key is about 1.5" long, and that 987G key is only .750 long. I would think that wouldn't work.

Also on the 2 degree mercedes key, how is that any different than using the 2 degree 987g key in the cam slot?
Wouldn't we need a 1 degree offset key in the cam to make a 2 degree difference on a degree wheel?

[mgarblik]

If the Mr. Gasket key is a 2 degree CAMSHAFT key it would be the same as the Mercedes key if it were accurate. I don't remember if the Mr. Gasket key is advertised as a 2 degree Camshaft key or a 2 degree crankshaft key which would be 4 degrees at the camshaft. I have a plastic box full of all kinds of keys and I really don't remember all the offsets . The thing I loved about the Mopar keys is they were in a kit of 1 degree increments at the cam. To answer the other question, if your stock Pontiac crank uses a single long key, you would not want to use a single short key in it's place. Many aftermarket Pontiac cranks use 2 of the small keys like a Chevy. If you are stuck on getting the cam exactly on the money, you need a crank gear with 9 keyways and a 2 degree key for the cam. That gets you 27 different precise adjustments from +8 to -8. If you feel you absolutely need a 1 degree offset key you can cut one from key stock in a mill. I had to make a few custom keys for the blower drive on the Boss Bird. Tedious and time consuming.

[rexs73gto]

I have a question? If the block has been line bored does it need to have the longer timing chain every time?? Also how do you know how much longer do you need??? Is it nessasery to use a longer chain each time when the block has been line bored?