AutoWeek Mustang vs GTO - Page 2 - PY Online Forums

red70goat · #21 01-08-2005, 11:35 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
both of them are ugly.... but they basically said the mustang won because of the "styling". ...its retro. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think people were so upset with the GM Monaro in that it wasn't retro so much in that it's just a butt ugly car: bloated back end, cheesey spoiler, jelly bean front end that Pontiac hasn't changed in a decade or so, girlie man rims, and that auto cross package just makes it worse. The only one I've seen that looks any good was the 2005 in Cyclone Grey and that was just a front end shot. If GM could do something to make it look a little sleeker ( aka dump the Neon look alike back end ), no spoiler

, no hood scoops,( C'mon GM, everybody knows they are fake

) and a more aggressive stance perhaps with a recessed grill and headlight treatment,( aka dump the all too tired jelly bean format ) extending the hood to conceal the wipers and some rims that didn't resemble something you'd see on a Tuners R Us Honda they'd have a clear winner. Eliminate the leather interior and a few other things that most people don't like or want anyways to keep costs down. It really wouldn't take much.

plexitim · #22 01-09-2005, 12:01 AM

Many good points in this string of messages. In my opinion:

1. In a GTO vs Mustang contest the fact is that both are SUPPOSED to be performance cars. I have read Car&Driver and a few other mags. In terms of pure performance the GTO comes out ahead. I am not sure why the GTO is getting slammed when, at least in the quarter mile, the Mustang simply cannot run with it. As some have said here, it must be advertising dollars or some other factor besides performance.

2. Where Mustang shines, is looking like a Mustang of old. GTO is a whole new shape FOR A GTO, and did not bother to try to look retro. Some (like my wife) feel it looks more like a Honda Civic. I am a GTO head, I like GTO's. I like the idea of having 400 horses under the hood and going 0 - 60 in 4.3 seconds. But styling wise, I know she is right. It looks somewhat like a Civic. So the visual appeal insofar as being <ahem> "Muscular" is not there.

However since the current run of GTO's is only for 3 years out at Holden/Australia, the word is that the GTO will continue to be produced, but will be re-styled and produced out in GM of Canada and will LOOK like a more retro GTO.

3. Fact is if you took the $9,000 gap in price between the two cars, invested some in Nitrous, you'd have a Ford that can outrun the GTO and still have some extra money for groceries each month.

Don't get me wrong. I do not like Fords. Never have. But what Ford has done, marketing and styling-wise, is brilliant. What GM has done - at least in my experience with trying to trade in my 2003 vehicle and drive out in a new GTO - is both arrogant and pathetic. Because they have a car that is faster than hell, looks like a rounded ravioli, and try to push it through a dealer network where the "last one on earth" arrogance is so thick you can cut it with a spoon.

I think that come 2006 when Ford comes out with a Cobra version Mustang that will be an essentially Special Vehicle Team built car (ie: darned near hand crafted and blueprinted from the factory), and when that Cobra is being sold for the same $33,000 like a GTO, I think Pontiac is going to have a bigger problem than they have today.

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #23 01-09-2005, 02:43 AM

all i was trying to say is that i wouldnt own either one so im not gonna play favorites. the gto is uglier but faster. the mustang looks somewhat better (kinda like a girl you like the front end but the big rear end ruins it) and is cheaper (from what ive heared both in price and quality). so why would they say the mustang is better then the gto?

plexitim · #24 01-09-2005, 07:27 AM

judge_jury_executioner_69:

Man, in one sentence you have just beautifully stated, what a lot of us have been feeling (and posting). Perfect.

David Jones · #25 01-09-2005, 11:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> so why would they say the mustang is better then the gto? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats what they thought.

JoeyD · #26 01-09-2005, 12:39 PM

Well this topic has certainly fostered a lot of banter. Here's my take on it. I just purchased a 6M '04 GTO. I strongly considered the '05 Mustang. From a price-dependent standpoint, let me say here that my wife works for the dealer I purchased the car. With her "GMS" pricing, coupled with the $5,500 rebate, I paid $25,100, even with the chromed wheels. Given the level of fit, finish and layout of the interior (the best from GM, at least for those vehicles sold in the US), coupled with the comfort of the seats, not to mention the drivetrain, anyone would be hard-pressed to give the nod to an 05 Mustang GT. I just drove one this weekend, 5 sp, leather. Sticker on it was 28,942. When you take the GTO's 6sp sticker less only the $5,500 rebate, you're right there with the Mustang. The dealer was not discounting the Stang, but at least they weren't gouging with any ADM garbage.

My short ride and seat of the pants assessment was that the Mustang was as quick 0-60, but not as torquey in real world driving as the GTO. Steering felt too light for my taste. You can tell it still has a solid axle, especially over some of the more severe road irregularities we have here in FL. The GTO is more compliant and has a nicer balance between ride civility and aggressive handling. However, the interior is where the GTO gains the most points over the Mustang. The Mustang seats are not as supportive, has less side bolstering and seat adjustments. The back seat is useless. Getting in the back of both is a pain, but once back there, the GTO's is far and away, the best.

As far as looks, Ford did its homework and I commend them for keeping the ponycar theme alive. Now, all this bashing about the GTO not being retro enough....who can say what the GTO would look like since it was last made - 20 years ago!!!! The Mustang has not missed a year in 41 straight. At least Mr. Lutz conceded GM goofed and should have put hood scoops on the 04. But with the gap in pro production, who's to say how the GTO would look today had it continued to be manufactured? Maybe a "Judge" version will spruce things up...or they can add a tach housing on the back, driver's side corner of the hood. What else is there that can bridge the 20 year gap??

Thanks for reading.

JoeyD

salokin · #27 01-09-2005, 01:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by William Black:
Just got the latest AutoWeek and couldn't believe how hard they slammed the "05 GTO against the Mustang. "The GTO's steering wheel felt heavy, muddy, even numb, the Mustang's had a sharp, immediate turn-in feel and bristled with visceral sensations of the road at every turn." "it simply cannot match the Mustang for feel, style or value" And they wrap the story with: "Overall, the Mustang backs up it's looks with a handling performance that puts to shame the GTO's. It's no contest: The winner is the Mustang GT." They said lots more negitive things. " the styling is total blandsville. It leaves no impression whatsoever." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL! Totally biased and obviously payed for by Ford.

I drove both an 04 GTO and 05 Mustang GT the othe day. I'm in the market. I like the Mustang, it has it's looks. But I will tell you the Mustang GT has nothing even on the 04 GTO as far as fit, finish and power. I will wait to test drive an 05 GTO before I make my decision. The Mustang did look nice, but it did not seem to handle as good as the 04 GTO. Going around corners in the 04 GTO with it's IRS firmly plant the wheels to the ground, while the Mustang with it's live axle tends to jump around over bumps.

salokin · #28 01-09-2005, 01:17 PM

Also for FWIW the next gen GTO will NOT be built in Canada but at the Hamtramck facility in Mich.

RandyW · #29 01-09-2005, 03:21 PM

Car and Driver gave the win to Mustang by a score of 211 to 210 and that was based on what they called "got to have it factor'(25 to 18) or some such crap! The GTO won every catagory but that one, including the fun to drive section!!! Boy, that was a real butt whipping, huh?! If you don't Got to have it, the GTO wins easily!!

PS; For what it's worth, there were three Mustang ads in that mag, not the zero as was claimed here by David Jones, nice try though!

pont3 · #30 01-09-2005, 05:52 PM

Joey, welcome to the board. I, too, own an 04 GTO and, as I'm sure your perusing the forum has shown you, the new GTO is not welcome here. Maybe the aggression has relented somewhat but be prepared for repeated lessons on what the New GTO is or isn't. Sure, it doesn't look like old GTO's, the last of which was built in 1974, nor does it possess a Pontiac designed engine,(all GM engines are now designed by GM powertrain). So, since it does not meet THEIR criteria for what a GTO should look like, or have a PONTIAC-ONLY powerplant, it is not a GTO. The company that put the badge on the old GTOs is suddenly incapable of knowing what a GTO should be. I applaud Pontiac for providing us the opportunity to own this car and eagerly anticipate the future renditions. They should be happy too, for if nothing else, it gave them something to argue and bitch about. They won't simply state "I don't like the new GTO", and leave it at that, but continue to reiterate those sentiments. They will compare it to other vehicles that aren't even in the same class and declare their preference for the other vehicle while proclaiming your stupidity for choosing the vehicle YOU prefer. They will fail to acknowledge that they are only a small dot in the automotive world and will never be a targeted demographic. The amount of respect you receive here is directly related to the year of GTO you own and even though 14000 people own 04's, and they don't, they are the ones who can accurately assess what it is or isn't. In other words, we can accept the fact that the car is not for them and respect them for that, but they cannot accept the fact that this car meets our needs. Now I feel it's no longer statements of opinion, but intentional humiliation.

"THEY" refers to(you know who you are)

David Jones · #31 01-09-2005, 06:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>PS; For what it's worth, there were three Mustang ads in that mag, not the zero as was claimed here by David Jones, nice try though! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Randy, you must have a different Car and Driver. The Jan05 issue with the comparison test between the Mustang and GTO that Car and Driver mailed to me had ZERO Mustang ads in it. It did however have a Ford Freestyle ad in it. The GTO ad is on the back cover. Why don't you give me the page numbers of the 3 Mustang ads in your book?

Goat luver · #32 01-09-2005, 06:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pont3:
Joey, welcome to the board. I, too, own an 04 GTO and, as I'm sure your perusing the forum has shown you, the new GTO is not welcome here. Maybe the aggression has relented somewhat but be prepared for repeated lessons on what the New GTO is or isn't. Sure, it doesn't look like old GTO's, the last of which was built in 1974, nor does it possess a Pontiac designed engine,(all GM engines are now designed by GM powertrain). So, since it does not meet THEIR criteria for what a GTO should look like, or have a PONTIAC-ONLY powerplant, it is not a GTO. The company that put the badge on the old GTOs is suddenly incapable of knowing what a GTO should be. I applaud Pontiac for providing us the opportunity to own this car and eagerly anticipate the future renditions. They should be happy too, for if nothing else, it gave them something to argue and bitch about. They won't simply state "I don't like the new GTO", and leave it at that, but continue to reiterate those sentiments. They will compare it to other vehicles that aren't even in the same class and declare their preference for the other vehicle while proclaiming your stupidity for choosing the vehicle YOU prefer. They will fail to acknowledge that they are only a small dot in the automotive world and will never be a targeted demographic. The amount of respect you receive here is directly related to the year of GTO you own and even though 14000 people own 04's, and they don't, they are the ones who can accurately assess what it is or isn't. In other words, we can accept the fact that the car is not for them and respect them for that, but they cannot accept the fact that this car meets our needs. Now I feel it's no longer statements of opinion, but intentional humiliation.

"THEY" refers to(you know who you are) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely brilliant! I could not have put it better myself. You have summed up "THEY" exactly.

LiL Jack · #33 01-09-2005, 06:43 PM

I heard ALL the 05 Mustangs might get recalled, I heard from a reliable source that the heads on the 05 mustang are cracking.

But just remember at ford quality is job one

RandyW · #34 01-09-2005, 06:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Randy, you must have a different Car and Driver. The Jan05 issue with the comparison test between the Mustang and GTO that Car and Driver mailed to me had ZERO Mustang ads in it. It did however have a Ford Freestyle ad in it. The GTO ad is on the back cover. Why don't you give me the page numbers of the 3 Mustang ads in your book?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was looking at it on line, not in the book, I don't have the mag, yet. If the ads are only on line, then I'll admit my mistake.
However all this is a smoke screen to cover the fact that the GTO won in every catagory except the 'got to have one' catagory, which is certainly no more than his opinion!

If you guys that own old GTO's can't get past your prejudices, you should at least leave the people who do like them, alone. Let them enjoy thier very nice cars, and stay out of thier business. Did it ever occur to you, unless they ask your opinion, they probably don't want it!?

salokin · #35 01-09-2005, 08:11 PM

Car looks better everytime I see it.

pluto · #36 01-09-2005, 08:38 PM

To each thier own....it's rice. take off the rose colored glasses. bill......out!

plexitim · #37 01-09-2005, 08:48 PM

Based on some of the excellent posts on this subject, I think the bottom line is this: drive the car.

salokin · #38 01-09-2005, 09:20 PM

Here is why Autoweek is so full of it when it comes to the Mustang review.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
LOS ANGELES -- Ford Motor Co. is planning upgrades to its new Mustang after just a few months on the market.

Ford product development chief Phil Martens wouldn't provide details of the changes. But he said the upgrades would improve ride and decrease noise, vibration and harshness.

"We're very aware of the shelf life of products," Martens said. "We've pulled it ahead."

He wouldn't detail the timing of any changes.
Though he said he's pleased with the front and rear suspension on the redesigned Mustang, Martens also touted the value of independent rear suspension. The Mustang platform has a solid rear axle but was designed to accommodate an independent rear suspension module. Ford has typically used an independent rear suspension for the high-performance Mustang Cobra SVT.

He didn't rule out an eventual move to independent rear suspension for the Mustang platform.

Said Martens: "It is undecided."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some here need to take off your rose colored glasses when it comes to the Mustang.

rabon008 · #39 01-09-2005, 09:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by PlexiTim:
Many good points in this string of messages. In my opinion:

1. In a GTO vs Mustang contest the fact is that both are SUPPOSED to be performance cars. I have read Car&Driver and a few other mags. In terms of pure performance the GTO comes out ahead. I am not sure why the GTO is getting slammed when, at least in the quarter mile, the Mustang simply cannot run with it. As some have said here, it must be advertising dollars or some other factor besides performance.

2. Where Mustang shines, is looking like a Mustang of old. GTO is a whole new shape FOR A GTO, and did not bother to try to look retro. Some (like my wife) feel it looks more like a Honda Civic. I am a GTO head, I like GTO's. I like the idea of having 400 horses under the hood and going 0 - 60 in 4.3 seconds. But styling wise, I know she is right. It looks somewhat like a Civic. So the visual appeal insofar as being <ahem> "Muscular" is not there.

However since the current run of GTO's is only for 3 years out at Holden/Australia, the word is that the GTO will continue to be produced, but will be re-styled and produced out in GM of Canada and will LOOK like a more retro GTO.

3. Fact is if you took the $9,000 gap in price between the two cars, invested some in Nitrous, you'd have a Ford that can outrun the GTO and still have some extra money for groceries each month.

Don't get me wrong. I do not like Fords. Never have. But what Ford has done, marketing and styling-wise, is brilliant. What GM has done - at least in my experience with trying to trade in my 2003 vehicle and drive out in a new GTO - is both arrogant and pathetic. Because they have a car that is faster than hell, looks like a rounded ravioli, and try to push it through a dealer network where the "last one on earth" arrogance is so thick you can cut it with a spoon.

I think that come 2006 when Ford comes out with a Cobra version Mustang that will be an essentially Special Vehicle Team built car (ie: darned near hand crafted and blueprinted from the factory), and when that Cobra is being sold for the same $33,000 like a GTO, I think Pontiac is going to have a bigger problem than they have today. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When it is built in America, the GTO will probably have more of the looks that the vintage GTO guys crave. However, I have a few predictions about that.

1) Pontiac will probably screw something up about the engine (possibly offering a V6 option or the like).

2) GM will probably screw something up on the quality. Right now the fit and finish of my '04 is so good I know they won't "improve" on it.

3) I have an '04 and my '05 should be in very soon now. I want a car that is mainstream in looks (like the original GTOs), has a powerful GM engine (like the original GTOs), performs as well as any car in its price range (like the original GTOs) and is comfortable as an everyday driver (well, for their day, I guess the original GTOs fit that bill too).

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #40 01-10-2005, 12:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by PlexiTim:
judge_jury_executioner_69:

Man, in one sentence you have just beautifully stated, what a lot of us have been feeling (and posting). Perfect. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thanks. ive been told i have a way with words.