GTO Sales Flop........Detroit News, May 24,04

[ChiefIronHorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> For the record, I think your comments on the car are right on the money. It is no wonder that I also chose not to return the salesmans calls after my test drive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For the record, I think your comments as well as glens are off the mark. It's no wonder that I purchased the vehicle after my test drive. If I believed everything I read on the net then I would be listening and following someone elses opinion and not my own. Then again, I've read alot more praise for this vehicle then I have negative comments.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I am happy you owners love your new toys, but it is hardly a surprise... How many of you would admit you spent too much money on a car you hate anyway? The latest T-bird owners are still happy with their cars too, I'll bet.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm happy that there are a few of you that don't like this vehicle. If EVERYBODY liked it, then it would have been harder for me to obtain one. But it's hardly a surprise that MOST if not all 2004 GTO owners love their car. High displacement V-8, RWD, true dual exhaust vehicle that can seat 4 people comfortable and cost less then 35 grand. What more can you ask for? 455HOGT37, why is it so hard to believe that the GTO owners love/like their vehicle? Just because you don't like it does it mean that nobody else can either? I'm sure you own a few things like your home/car/furniture that would make people gag or cringe. But you didn't buy them just because your family or friends (if you have any) liked them. Did you?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> There might be one or two of you lovers out there with some class, but many of you are simply pathetic. You have a total inability to discuss the mere possibility that this thing has some shortcomings. So, in order not to damage you frail egos: "Bob Lutz is a god, and the Holden is the finest automotive creation of all time and forevermore."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There might be one or two of you GTO haters out there with some class, but many of you are simple minded. You have a total inablility to accept the fact that there are people out there that love/like this vehicle and it's potential. I'm sure this vehicle has a few shortcomings. But what or who doesn't? Nobody is perfect nor anything. There are those of you that have personal shortcomings but your wife/girlfriend still love you. That's because they see deeper then whats on the surface. So, in order not to damage your frail egos and personalities: "Bob Putz is the most pathetic excuse for GM and he should be baned from the automobile industry forever."

Do YOU feel better now?

[ChiefIronHorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by glenn bayard:
It's great that Pontiac is interested in consumer feed back. My concern, and should be a concern for Pontiac, is how many people see and drive the GTO at the dealership, then head off to buy a Infiniti G35 Coupe or Mazda RS8.........to be more exact, about 4 times buy the competion, from dealers that are far far fewer than Pontiac.........that's the true market reply. I WILL buy a 05 GTO if the much needed changes are made, as I suggested,if not I will join everyone else in rejecting the GTO. Sadly, any responsible car company can correct the few but significant shortcomings of this car. I am glad you are a happy and proud owner, nothing at all personal. Thanks.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GTO 4MA:
Got a call from PMD today (no kidding)asking how I liked my '04 Yellow Jacket and how PMD could improve future models.

I responded that I had some real issues with the car - it had way more acceleration than I expected, cornered like it was on rails, solid as a rock,get all kinds of "cool car babe" from onlookers, and too many people back down at traffic lights - as far as improvements go, hood scoops, maybe a judge option with LS2, although the LS1 version in the current GTO has the latest and greatest heads and throttle body and is probably only 20 HP differential with the LS-6.

As far as your BMW is concerned Mr. Bayard, we defeated the Germans in 1945 and PMD defeated them in 2004. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

glen,

Why should you be concerned for Pontiac? Do you have stock in the company? Are you an employee? I find it amusing that you are hanging out at the dealerships and counting the number of people that test drive the GTO then go out and purchase the Infiniti G35 Coupe or Mazda RX8. I'd be interested in seeing those numbers. And please don't forget to mention the product numbers for each make. For instance I'm sure you know how many Infiniti G35, Mazda RX8 and GTO have been produced and sold to date. Again, I would be interested in seeing those numbers. Let's say that there have been approximately 3168 GTOs sold to date. How many have been built compair to the Infiniti G35 or the Mazda RX8? I'm sure that Infiniti and Mazda are building WAY more G35 and RX8s then 18,000. Get where I'm going with this? And glen, not trying to be harsh here or insulting you but who cares if you don't purchase the 2004 GTO? You're acting like if Pontiac doesn't sell you a 2004 GTO, then it's then end of the world for them. And I love this line:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I will join everyone else in rejecting the GTO. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So do you speak for everone else now? I guess nobody but NOBODY likes the GTO.
Why didn't I come to you for advise before purchasing my GTO glen? Seeing your views I would have never bought my GTO. I would have ran out and got an Infiniti or a Mazda.

I'm glad that your interested in this vehicle. If you feel it's has shortcomings then that's your opinion. glen, in reference to this post, nothing personal. Thanks!

[Nickv]

Hey Iron Horse, when did you buy your 04 GTO? What color and is it a 6 speed or A4?

[HUMBLER]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

So do you speak for everone else now? I guess nobody but NOBODY likes the GTO.
Why didn't I come to you for advise before purchasing my GTO glen? Seeing your views I would have never bought my GTO. I would have ran out and got an Infiniti or a Mazda.

I'm glad that your interested in this vehicle. If you feel it's has shortcomings then that's your opinion. glen, in reference to this post, nothing personal. Thanks! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well put,

[ChiefIronHorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nickv:
Hey Iron Horse, when did you buy your 04 GTO? What color and is it a 6 speed or A4? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NickV,

I bought my GTO in the middle of April. I got the IBM/Blue/M6. I love this car!

[GTO 4MA]

Glenn -

One of my neighbors owns a G35 - using his G meter gizmo, my '04 GTO is 0.8 seconds quicker 0-60 than his G35 - now simple math would tell you that's about 70 feet, or a good 4 car lengths - a good old "mirror job". Now how do these cars compare with each other - I don't get your point, unless the people that turn down the GTO and go out and buy a G35 simply can't handle a GTO.

[Nickv]

Personally I find the G35 to be quite boring in it's styling. 4 doors don't cut with me. All the cars I've ever owned in my lifetime were 2 door coupes with the exception of my first car, 1956 Olds 98 and my 2002 Mitsu Galant DTZ, which I traded in to get my 04 GTO.

[Bunz53]

Talking about the real competition for this car is finaly refreshing. It's not the Stang, which is not a bad car, just one that I didn't care for. I looked and drove a number of cars before getting the GTO. I must credit the 350Z for getting me looking. I had a 74 conv Vette which got me to work everyday. I wanted something new. I looked at the 350, G35(almost same thing a little more refined with 4 seats), RX8, BMW 3/5, Maxima (I'm a family guy). The Maxima is a great car, but I can't do that to myself. BMW 3 was affordable, but not fast enough. The 5 wasn't cheap, and still not fast enough. The 350Z is a fun car, but way too small. I'm not single anymore. The G35 is a very refined car, and it does move. The problem is that the rear seats have barely any clearance. I'm only 5'7 and it felt low and cramped to me. Now the RX-8 is a huge disappointment. Not only is it claustraphobic, but the engine is not fast. If you look at the other cars with the same options of the GTO, you find more expensive cars. The RX-8 for crying out loud, with leather seats and all the other crap that you have to buy to get leather seates comes to about 35,000. The 350Z and G35 gets about 37,000. The BMWs get even higher. Now these other cars do get a sun roof at these prices, but I'm not a sunroof guy. For the money for these cars, I still got the best deal. And when the warrenty runs out I'm going to make this a 500HP second car.

[455HOGT37]

Humbler-

I'll ignore history and pretend you actually want to know why I did not buy after the test drive. I'll go as far as saying the car just didn't turn my crank. Beyond that, I'll tell you to dig into the archives and read it for yourself, because back then I cared enough about the car to discuss it point for point.

Since the 04 is not in my future unless we see some deep discounts (which is getting more and more likely), I thought I would do my part to point out how badly you treat other Pontiac people at times. Mr. Bayard posted a mostly glowing report of the car, along with the items that HE deemed important to him. I read it with interest because they mirror my own impressions. I guess I should not have been too shocked when some of you tore him apart. I can certainly see that kind of passion for political and religious topics... but all that venom for a silly machine! Come on people, it is a frigging product anyone can buy at the store, like a dishwasher!

SO... To answer Horsey:

Read my post again without the attitude. It is good you like your car. It would be a shame for you to spend all that money just to prove a point. The thing to remember though, is that just because my priorities differ from yours and I decided NOT to buy, that does not diminish your experience. You should continue to be happy with your purchase despite what other people think. I am certainly not putting anyone down, nor trying to change anyones mind, just because they bought a Holden. By the same token, YOUR priorities should not be thrust onto others as justification for a purchase. For example, the 0-60 times are often compared with other brands and the Holden is often a clear winner. That argument doesn't work with someone who holds other virtues MORE desireable. Personaly, I would be willing to give up 25 HP for a bigger trunk and faster seats. Does this make me wrong... No, but it does make me a financially qualified, yet non-buyer of the Holden this year.

I'm hoping Lutz gets his act together for 05.

[Bunz53]

Remember fellas it's only a car.
Please excuse me, I will use a rider axiom.

"just keep the rubber on the road"

Remember this is supposed to be fun.

[glenn bayard]

No, the measure of success for a car company is sales, the more desirable/attractive/competitive a car is the more people buy it, rather simple. With less than 20% of the dealerships in the US G 35 Coupes outsell the GTO 5 to 1, and increasing still!!! Plus this is a car with 0 history, versus a legend with one would assume an incredible pent up demand......sadly,it has been purchased by older afficonodos, and soon to be boght by no one, sadly, and because of Pontiac/GM idiots.......can't be any more truthful than that. I am personally happy nearly everyone on this website is happy, as is true of every other website of actual car buyers................but it's the 10X more people that visit and test drive the car and then goes to Infinit, Mazda, BMW, and soon the 05 Mustangs (which I don't like at all, but LOVED the concept, yet another FMC mis step). Sales failure of a car icon, after over 3 decades, has never occured more badly than with the GTO. I predict, and I'm NEVER wrong, that after a healthy summer spurt in increased sales,will be followed with declining/disasterous sales given the new interiors and other enhancements scheduled for the G35 05 model, Mustang 05 intro, and then in 06 the new 3 Series coupe.........called the 4 Series...........I gaurantee this, not boastful or arrogant, just the bloody truth, all of which Pontiac/GM management is at TOTAL blame, not you guys, so nothing personal.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Iron Horse:
And what #'s are you refering too? I'm sure you've been on the street corners taking a poll on the GTO. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[glenn bayard]

Thanks for your understanding ie you and I are not alone, as my subsequent note speaks to......it's the people that walk out of the Pontiac showrooms in record numbers that never is heard of at this website, only in the monthly sales figures of depressing GTo sales while the competion is expreiencing record sales....and to boot, the likes of a RX8, G35 coupe has 0 history, no legacy, no pent up demand, simply a superior competitive product in countless ways...........I still would love an improved GT0 ie I will buy a 05 GTO if several of these changes are implemented......nuff said on this subject.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 455HOGT37:
Humbler-

I'll ignore history and pretend you actually want to know why I did not buy after the test drive. I'll go as far as saying the car just didn't turn my crank. Beyond that, I'll tell you to dig into the archives and read it for yourself, because back then I cared enough about the car to discuss it point for point.

Since the 04 is not in my future unless we see some deep discounts (which is getting more and more likely), I thought I would do my part to point out how badly you treat other Pontiac people at times. Mr. Bayard posted a mostly glowing report of the car, along with the items that HE deemed important to him. I read it with interest because they mirror my own impressions. I guess I should not have been too shocked when some of you tore him apart. I can certainly see that kind of passion for political and religious topics... but all that venom for a silly machine! Come on people, it is a frigging product anyone can buy at the store, like a dishwasher!

SO... To answer Horsey:

Read my post again without the attitude. It is good you like your car. It would be a shame for you to spend all that money just to prove a point. The thing to remember though, is that just because my priorities differ from yours and I decided NOT to buy, that does not diminish your experience. You should continue to be happy with your purchase despite what other people think. I am certainly not putting anyone down, nor trying to change anyones mind, just because they bought a Holden. By the same token, YOUR priorities should not be thrust onto others as justification for a purchase. For example, the 0-60 times are often compared with other brands and the Holden is often a clear winner. That argument doesn't work with someone who holds other virtues MORE desireable. Personaly, I would be willing to give up 25 HP for a bigger trunk and faster seats. Does this make me wrong... No, but it does make me a financially qualified, yet non-buyer of the Holden this year.

I'm hoping Lutz gets his act together for 05. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[zagan]

Hi there,

Just been reading over this thread, and have found it kind of interesting.

I'm from Australia and was looking around to see how the "GTO" is doing over there.

My thoughts was that the GTO was a special car where it wasn't meant to make mass sales etc, as in it's not meant to be a car where it either makes or breaks a company.

As far as I know the current GTO's are at least 90% totally made in Australia some are made in the USA, and they do have slight differances in looks to the Australian holden, I think the car down here has a better look to it, and looks and goes great on the roads down here as well.

I see some of the hard core people have been yelling about bonnet scoops and stuff, but from looking at the 2005 GTO pics I think it's just USA rice, nothing more, nothing less.


Anyway, just to let you GTO owners know, probably something you's don't know, because the car is new over there, but down here you can soup up the holden's quite a bit, so you could quite easily double or tripple the current output of the GTO.

There are holden's down here with twin turbos doing 500kw at the rear wheels and probbaly making around 600+HP, A few companies here do special stages for holdens, so getting the kits wouldn't be hard at all, the only complant, it's hard trying not to spin the wheels in the 4th and 5th gears on a dry road.

Anyway have fun none the less.

[HUMBLER]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 455HOGT37:
Humbler-

I'll ignore history and pretend you actually want to know why I did not buy after the test drive. I'll go as far as saying the car just didn't turn my crank. Beyond that, I'll tell you to dig into the archives and read it for yourself, because back then I cared enough about the car to discuss it point for point.

Since the 04 is not in my future unless we see some deep discounts (which is getting more and more likely), I thought I would do my part to point out how badly you treat other Pontiac people at times. Mr. Bayard posted a mostly glowing report of the car, along with the items that HE deemed important to him. I read it with interest because they mirror my own impressions. I guess I should not have been too shocked when some of you tore him apart. I can certainly see that kind of passion for political and religious topics... but all that venom for a silly machine! Come on people, it is a frigging product anyone can buy at the store, like a dishwasher!

SO... To answer Horsey:

Read my post again without the attitude. It is good you like your car. It would be a shame for you to spend all that money just to prove a point. The thing to remember though, is that just because my priorities differ from yours and I decided NOT to buy, that does not diminish your experience. You should continue to be happy with your purchase despite what other people think. I am certainly not putting anyone down, nor trying to change anyones mind, just because they bought a Holden. By the same token, YOUR priorities should not be thrust onto others as justification for a purchase. For example, the 0-60 times are often compared with other brands and the Holden is often a clear winner. That argument doesn't work with someone who holds other virtues MORE desireable. Personaly, I would be willing to give up 25 HP for a bigger trunk and faster seats. Does this make me wrong... No, but it does make me a financially qualified, yet non-buyer of the Holden this year.

I'm hoping Lutz gets his act together for 05. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How badly I treat Pontiac people? What is that all about? Just "spirited" discussion here! You'll have to fill me in. I'm a Pontiac fan, so possibly you are refferring to some comments i've made to Ford or Non-Corporate folks but all justified IMHO.

Anyway, looks like Lutz got his act EVEN MORE together for 05!

[HUMBLER]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by humbler:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 455HOGT37:
Humbler-

I'll ignore history and pretend you actually want to know why I did not buy after the test drive. I'll go as far as saying the car just didn't turn my crank. Beyond that, I'll tell you to dig into the archives and read it for yourself, because back then I cared enough about the car to discuss it point for point.

Since the 04 is not in my future unless we see some deep discounts (which is getting more and more likely), I thought I would do my part to point out how badly you treat other Pontiac people at times. Mr. Bayard posted a mostly glowing report of the car, along with the items that HE deemed important to him. I read it with interest because they mirror my own impressions. I guess I should not have been too shocked when some of you tore him apart. I can certainly see that kind of passion for political and religious topics... but all that venom for a silly machine! Come on people, it is a frigging product anyone can buy at the store, like a dishwasher!

SO... To answer Horsey:

Read my post again without the attitude. It is good you like your car. It would be a shame for you to spend all that money just to prove a point. The thing to remember though, is that just because my priorities differ from yours and I decided NOT to buy, that does not diminish your experience. You should continue to be happy with your purchase despite what other people think. I am certainly not putting anyone down, nor trying to change anyones mind, just because they bought a Holden. By the same token, YOUR priorities should not be thrust onto others as justification for a purchase. For example, the 0-60 times are often compared with other brands and the Holden is often a clear winner. That argument doesn't work with someone who holds other virtues MORE desireable. Personaly, I would be willing to give up 25 HP for a bigger trunk and faster seats. Does this make me wrong... No, but it does make me a financially qualified, yet non-buyer of the Holden this year.

I'm hoping Lutz gets his act together for 05. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How badly I treat Pontiac people? What is that all about? Just "spirited" discussion here! You'll have to fill me in. I'm a Pontiac fan, so possibly you are refferring to some comments i've made to Ford or Non-Corporate folks but all justified IMHO.

Anyway, looks like Lutz got his act EVEN MORE together for 05!

Also, I looked back a little bit but didn't see where you said specifically what you didn't like about the car after driving it. I ask because it seems people either change their mind or like it even more after actually driving one. Styling, yeah we all know. But the feel, performance, interior? Just generally doesn't turn your crank huh?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[455HOGT37]

Humbler-

"...point out how badly you treat other Pontiac people at times..."

Reading this again, it looks as though this comment was directed at you in particular. That was not my intent and I apologize. It was intended to apply to a large group of "you people"... Whoever you are. Just an observation... with poor paragraph structure.

[HUMBLER]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 455HOGT37:
Humbler-

"...point out how badly you treat other Pontiac people at times..."

Reading this again, it looks as though this comment was directed at you in particular. That was not my intent and I apologize. It was intended to apply to a large group of "you people"... Whoever you are. Just an observation... with poor paragraph structure. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha, regardless, still have questions about your statement.

"we people" have a hard time understanding "you people" who have such contempt for a car that is, without question, the best thing that has come from Pontiac in a long while. If the GXP had beat it to production, I'd say you have an argument. How anyone can say they'd rather be driving a Grand Am, Grand Prix, Bonneville (non GXP), Vibe or Montana is way beyond me. I get all the GTO heritage issues but for a "Pontiac guy" it's the best thing going. I also understand the concept that Pontiac died 20 years ago or whatever but then again that is the difference between a Classic Pontiac and Pontiac guy.

[glenn bayard]

You are righ about the cramped headroom in the g35 coupe.....my #1 complaint, plus for 05 it will get a much deserved interior. That is the VERY reason why I wanted to love/buy the 05 GTO........just can't get past a few of it's shortcomings, ALL of which Pontiac could and should have addressed,like side air bags (Monaro has them), I love my family to much to forfeit this important safety feature (I'm a engineer, seen lots and lots of messy auto accidents). Just one point though, I LOVED the way the Rx8 LOOKS, but it is indeed clostrphobic at 6 2, head room in front doesn't exist, engine is very problemeatic ie 14 MPG, overheats///Mazda suggests running it for 3 mins before a hot shut off, consumes 1 qt oil every 500 miles.......actually Mazda recommend oil ck each and every gas fill up. BUT I do love the classy interor, cheeky exterior, kind of like eye candy but not at all a good/practicle car. I am happy you are plsd with your GTO , a truly wonderful daily driver with a sound to kill for ( I could very easily buy the 05 GTO if I hear it's rumble.........something to love each and every time one stops at a light). Again, enjoy your great car!! Glenn<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nickv:
Personally I find the G35 to be quite boring in it's styling. 4 doors don't cut with me. All the cars I've ever owned in my lifetime were 2 door coupes with the exception of my first car, 1956 Olds 98 and my 2002 Mitsu Galant DTZ, which I traded in to get my 04 GTO. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[455HOGT37]

Humbler-

I am not contemptuous of the car. I agree that GM needs this class of vehicle in its lineup, and it is the best thing to happen in a long time. From a practical standpoint as a consumer product however, it comes up a bit short for the price. In my opinion (the only one that matters for my buy/no buy decision), the trunk is too small, the steering too slow, the interior too cheezy, seat adjust/rear seat access too slow, no dead pedal, weird central locking function, the rear spoiler looks like a JC Whitney special, and of course, the car looks lame overall. As far as I'm concerned, these are not show stoppers on a sub-25k car, but they are most certainly unacceptable on the 35k, "flagship" of the Pontiac line. These issues are much more important to me (and the general public, it seems) than its quarter mile performance. Overwhelming evidence of this is the fact that Mustang kills everyone in sales largely due to cheesy 6 banger models. Face it, gearheads are a very small and unimportant part of the market.

From an enthusiast perpective, Lutz handled this wrong. If anyone has taken a marketing course, they are familiar with the "marketing mix" - the four "Ps". Lutz had direct control over the Price, Product, Promotion and Position. I think several years from now, at the end of his career, Lutz will give a magazine interview and will admit that marketing this thing as the Pontiac GTO, vs bringing the car here some other way, was a mistake. That has always been my prediction, and the facts seem to be supporting that so far.

The bright spot in all this? I predict deep discounts by the end of summer to blow out all the unsold 04 models to make way for the improved 05's. I may just get one yet!

[svede1212]

interesting. the only place so far that i've "heard" such negative comments is the internet. today i went to an auto tint place to pick up some film for a project at work. the owmer came out and we talked about the stuff i needed. i asked him while i was there how much for a rear tint job on my car. he asked what kind of car it was and i told him an '04 GTO. he said he saw me pull in and thought for a second from the back it was a mustang (ugh). he realized he didn't know what it was and asked to look it over. he was wow'ed by the interior (a previous post thought cheap, which is his(or her) opinion that hasn't been shared by ANY review or person i've talked to). he was amazed that GM made a RWD V8 car like this. the shop emptied out and the guys swarmed over the car asking lots of questions and left a guy with a brand new corvette just standing there. the average "idiots" driving down the road have had their heads turned when i drive by and teenage boys get eyes as big as saucers and say "sweet". i say idiots because they are obviously not as enlightened as you. at home two workmen were putting in a fence for me. same reaction and the same thing everywhere else i go. not too bad for my flop car. at this point i have mine and i don't care how many more they sell or what the internet pundits think.