[PONTIAC DUDE]

Ken C, Why should "John Q Public" buying a Brand New "in the box pump" have to tear it apart to clean and check it? That's not what they are buying.
Are there instructions in the box telling you to dis-assemble it and remove the gritty machine oiled film? Relace the pitted balls? ETC?

They claim that every pump that has a fit problem or needs to be checked for clearance has the appropiate note or notes inside.
You tell me why you need to tear a "BRAND NEW" pump apart and do what should not have occured in the first place.

It is new right? Do you have to tear everything that is new you buy apart? No!!!!!!!!!

[fiedlerh]

I bought a Melling 54DS for my rebuild but I'm not sure I am going to use it. Any opinions on the thin bottom plate used on it?

The Melling pump has some minor burrs/sharp edges on the inside that need to be cleaned up. I hear it is best to mark the gears before taking it apart since they supposedly are lapped to match each other. The scary part about the Melling pump was that the pressure regulator cap was only finger tight.

Is there anything more than a press fit holding the gears on? Is the pump shaft knurled before the gears are pressed on?

When you say 3/4" pickup tube, where are you measuring ID or OD of the tube?

Is the Dynagear pump any better?

[Tom McQueen]

You had better set (or at least check) the end clearances on that Melling pump as well. I dont think I have ever seen one that was right out of the box. Usually the end clearance is way to much. You want a hi volume pump, youre looking at a titan (I have one), and its not a bolt in.

[Robert Williams]

The earlier versions of both pumps used the "THICK" cast bottom plate. They now use the harder/thinner plate which is stronger than the early cast thick plate. The M54DS is the 60 lb high volume, (not high pressure). The M54F is the high pressure 80 lb pump. http://www.melling.com/engoil.html http://www.melling.com/highvol.html

[ June 05, 2002, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Robert Williams ]

[cpetrice]

The MEL-M54DS is high pressure,not high volume,that is the one I bought,and it makes sure you are aware of the difference. Here is the cut and paste from the M54DS.... MEL-M54DS
MEL-M54DS







Click to view image

$26.95


Overview
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Material Cast Iron
Finish Bare

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Protect your engine with 20 to 25 percent more oil volume.

Pontiac: 265-455, high pressure oil pump



High pressure pump not high volume.

Includes pickup with larger than stock 3/4 in. tube (stock tube is 5/8 in.).

Intermediate shaft MEL-IS54A recommended

Here is the cut and paste from the summit "pontiac oil pump" search,Melling....
MEL-M62CHV Oil Pump 77-93 Hi-Volume Pontiac 151 $54.69 B/O
MEL-M62HV Oil Pump Hi-Volume 77-93 Pontiac 151 $51.39 B/O
MEL-M95HVS3 Oil Pump Hi-Vol Buick,Chevy,Olds,Pontiac 173 1980-89 $81.99 B/O

[Robert Williams]

Cpetrice, take a look at the M54DS pump that you have. Just above the inlet hole for the screen you will see a retainer that screws into the pump. This retainer keeps the check ball and relief spring in the pump body. The M54DS pump is the 60 lb pump, the retainer should hang out of the pump approx 5/16", from the pump body to the end of the retainer. On the 80 lb pump the M54F the retainer will hang out approx 1-1/4" from the pump body to the end of the retainer, the retainer is longer because the pump uses a longer relief spring. The M54F is the high pressure pump.

[Tom Vaught]

"Tom V, I'm pretty sure Butler carries higher volume oil pumps. He's got some billet pumps that's high volume for the race motors. I don't think any of the parts adapt to a traditional pump."

Rocky, if in your post you were referring to the
Titan pump, then I agree that it has a different
pump configuration from the Melling pump, but the
drive ratio is 1/2 speed from the crank to the camshaft (timing chain gear size change) and the
same ratio but a directional change from the cam
gear to the oil pump driven shaft. In simple type
words the oil pump runs at 1/2 crank rpm.

P Dude, Such weining from someone who gets paid the BIG BUCKS to hand build RACING engines. I
have personally checked the great majority of the parts in my engines before I fired the engines.
I have found: Under-sized Factory late SD rods,
improper piston clearance from the bore job, cracked blocks and cranks, improper clearances,
cams without a retention hole threaded, and more
and more. I was in the bathroom at a speed shop one time and the owner thought I had left, I
overheard him tell one of his employees what a
pain in the A$$ I was because he had to check any
work he did for me because he knew I would check
it and if it was wrong I would be back. Tom V.
ps If I paid you the big bucks on my motor You
better be checking the pump for grit and setting the end clearances!

[cpetrice]

Robert,I don't know who to believe. You sound like you know what you are talking about,while the summit cut and paste says different. I will try to find the melling website,and see what they have to say about it. Will keep you posted.....
Tom?!?!?! no ford propoganda!?!?! LOL

[Robert Williams]

Tom V you are right everything should be checked. Any pro engine builder worth a **** will take the oil pump apart and check every part of the pump and the clearance between the gears and bottom plate and that includes the titan pump.

[cpetrice]

On ebay,there is an oil pump that is a billet,high VOLUME oil pump,and the screw in part you are talking about sticks out about 1 1/2 inches or so. a couple other high PRESSURE oil pumps like the one I have,the screw in thing is sticking out 1/4 inch or so.

Here is the link to the HIGH VOLUME...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=1833774953

here is the link to my HIGH PRESSURE...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=1834619036

[Tim Corcoran]

Charles,

First off the reason that they make it a point to in their ad that the Pontiac pump is high pressure (hp)and not high volume (hv) is for this reason. The after market makes high volume pumps for just about every common make and model engine with the exception of Pontiac. You may have noticed that in the ads for the Chevy and Ford engines they advertise high volume. They don't want you to think your getting a hv pump like everyone else is getting. There is no advantage to a hp pump over a factory Pontiac OEM pump. All hp means is that it has a stronger spring in the check valve and that's it. Volume is the amount of liquid that will be delivered in a specific period of time, like 10 gallons per minute (GPM). Another way to explain it is this. If you had a hydraulic cylinder that had a 10" piston and a 12" stroke. Lets say that the volume equated to 2.6 gallons and you pushed on the piston and it took you one minute to empty the cylinder that would be a delivery rate of 2.6 GPM. An automotive pump is a hydraulic pump and it has a specific volume it will deliver per revolution. The higher the RPM the more oil that will be displaced over a given period, i.e., GPM. This volume of oil per revolution is constant regardless of pressure. Pressure is determined by resistance pushing against the oil flow. The maximum pressure in the system is determined by either the pressure relief valve (check valve) or the level of resistance to the flow. Lets say that you have an old engine and the bearing clearances are quite large and an excessive amount of oil is leaking past the bearings, in this case the oil pump volume may not be adequate to build enough pressure to reach maximum pressure. In this case there is so much leakage that none of the oil is going past the pressure relief valve. In this case a higher pressure oil pump would NOT increase the pressure no matter what. Now if you installed a higher volume oil pump and the volume or oil supply (GPM) was increased enough additional volume could create enough resistance to exceed the pressure setting of the pressure relief valve then started to by pass oil then you could reach your maximum oil pressure determined by the relief valve. The Pontiac engineers designed what is called a gear pump for their oil pumps. No one sells a higher than stock oil pump (there is one exception and it is made by Titan and it is very expensive). The gear pump has a chamber and two gears rotating in opposite directions. The only way to increase volume is to spin the gears faster or make a larger chamber and larger gears so more oil will be displaced per each revolution. Volume and pressure are related. Let's look at another example, Lets say that your pressure relief valve was set to by pass oil at 60 psi (60 lb. pump). In this example if your clearances were large enough that the oil pump did not provide enough volume to by pass the relief valve until the engine reached 6,500 RPM and you were shifting your car at 5,500 RPM then you would never reach 60 psi. In this example lets say that at 5,500 RPM your pressure only reached 50 psi. If you installed an 80 lb pump your pressure would still be 50 psi. Now if you installed a higher volume pump that had a volume capacity capable of exceeding the supply needed at 5,500 RPM then this would increase your pressure.

Tim Corcoran

[cpetrice]

Thanks Tim. I think the ? now is the M54ds,being the high pressure pump,and not high volume. or vice versa. I see other pontiac high volume oil pumps for $60+,and I got this one new for $26. So I believe the m54ds to be high pressure,and the m54f to be the high volume.

[Tim Corcoran]

OK guys I would like to clarify, all Pontiac pumps (except Titan) have the same volume capacity. The Titan runs several hundred dollars and is a custom install. There are some that may claim to be high volume, if so then it is a false claim. A 3/4" pick tube will not flow more than a 5/8" pick up tube. At best it may improve efficiency by a very small margin and reduce driving force a bit but the gears determine the flow not the pick up tube. Melling is a name but they don't make their own pumps, they provide blue prints and have their suppliers make them. Who knows where and who makes them. I think they are all sold by one company and then marketed under many names. Looks like no matter who you get them from you need to tear them down and inspect them.

Tim Corcoran

[KEN CROCIE]

The M54d IS a high volume pump by virtue of it's 3/4" pick up no matter what the Melling copywriters put in print.The M54F is also a high volume pump @ 80PSI. The M54C ,which nobody is mentioning is the Std.volume pump with a 5/8"pick up @50psi.

[KEN CROCIE]

Sorry-- Tim C's musings, and well thought out ones at that, were not up when I last posted.If the diameter of the pickup has no bearing on volume, then why bother having a larger pickup??They must have done it for a reason .Why does my 425 Buick in my Hallett ski boat now make 65 PSI oil pressure instead of 45PSI @ 4500 rpm.?? Might be that 3/4" pickup I grafted on in place of the orig. Buick 1/2" piece. Why is it easier to suck up a milk shake with a big straw than a small one?? Can we put a lock on this subject??

//

[cpetrice]

yeah,we can drop it. whatever It is,I just bought the summit/melling pump,it says it is both!!!!
SES-8-60-08-015







Click to view image

$47.95


Overview
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Material Cast Iron

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A high volume oil pump with the pickup already installed.

Pontiac: 301-455 with stock oil pans; high pressure oil pump and pickup combo

You get a high pressure Melling oil pump that delivers more pressure than stock, along with a pickup matched to your oil pan. This combo comes with the pickup already tack-welded to the pump body for you.

[Robert Williams]

Ken, thank's again for clearing that up. You don't have to be a Mechanical Engineer to know that a 3/4" tube will flow more volume than a 5/8 tube. Thank's for the e-mail, i will call you next week and order the book's.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Tom, you missed my point.
I was referring mainly to the home builder.
Why should an oil pump be shipped this way?
Should a person have to tear his "NEW" Carb apart before he installs it?
Should a person have to tear a custom built motor apart that he paid to have built. I thought I was trusting the integrety of the manufacture to produce a quality product for resale to the public!!!
Why should a person have to tear anything(or as you say all Melling oil pumps) apart that are purchased NEW and check for defects or poor workmanship?
Come on now Tom.

Why should a person have to buy a product knowing that it needs to be taken apart to clean and check it?

Tom and Ken C. I'm totally confused as to why you would promote a product that in the last 4 years comes dirty and rusty ( I personally have had troubles with the Ford and Pontiac pumps)?

Would you sell a product with that kind of guarantee?

I build and sell about 125/150 engines a year. Stock to race. Plus a ton of kits and parts. And you are saying that I need to tear every pump apart and check their workmanship?

Is this included in the purchase price from Melling?

Or an extra charge that I should pass along to the customer?
What other NEW products should I apply the same logic to?

[Tom Vaught]

P Dude,
"Tom, you missed my point."

I said: I usually do!

I was referring mainly to the home builder.
Why should an oil pump be shipped this way?
Should a person have to tear his "NEW" Carb apart before he installs it?

I said:

If he built a "Universal" engine I guess you could bolt on a "universally jetted" car and not have a problem. Could save a lot of money and not have to buy those jetting boxes which you would not need when you took your universal carb from
Michigan to Kansas to run. NOPE! I agree, ought
to seal that sucker up so you can't change nothing as the weather don't mean nothing, Altitude don't mean nothing, Big motors don't mean nothing, Yep! You are right Yes, Sir!

Should a person have to tear a custom built motor apart that he paid to have built. I thought I was trusting the integrety of the manufacture to produce a quality product for resale to the public!!!

I said:

If I wanted a crate motor where no checks are made, why do I need you charging all of those bucks to do no checking of parts. I suppose you just drop those Chinese cranks right into those
standard bearings and off you go, right!

should a person have to tear anything(or as you say all Melling oil pumps) apart that are purchased NEW and check for defects or poor workmanship? Come on now Tom.

I said:
The "factorys" do, Ford, GM, Chrysler, that is why they have QC departments at the plants where they receive the parts and routine inspections at
different times in the production runs.

Why should a person have to buy a product knowing that it needs to be taken apart to clean and check it?

I said:
After the plumber, fixes your faucet, don't you turn the water on and check for leaks, same thing.

Tom and Ken C. I'm totally confused as to why you would promote a product that in the last 4 years comes dirty and rusty ( I personally have had troubles with the Ford and Pontiac pumps)?

I said:
Those Chinese cranks you use in motors don't have
a spec of rust on them do they. You promote and sell them. Confusion is normally the first response to lack of knowledge, Ken and I have been
doing this stuff for a little while, No one heard
of you 10 years ago in the community, Ken was out
there a long time before you were.

Would you sell a product with that kind of guarantee?

I said:
I believe Melling will replace ANY defective pump
free of charge.

I build and sell about 125/150 engines a year. Stock to race. Plus a ton of kits and parts. And you are saying that I need to tear every pump apart and check their workmanship?

I said:
Damn. I thought you were an engine builder, you
are a parts changer! We have people on the line
who build more engine than you do in one week but they don't claim to be Engine Builders.

Is this included in the purchase price from Melling? Or an extra charge that I should pass along to the customer?

I said:
I would gladly pay the slight difference in money to have the job done correctly. By the way, the
Butlers do check each pump and they found a bunch of undersized relief balls in the melling pumps.
They notified Melling and the pumps were returned
for different ones. Apparently, you would have never caught that in your "Engine Building"

What other NEW products should I apply the same logic to?

I said:
Every part you install on a CUSTOMERS car. How does that line go? If you aren't going to do it right... Some people don't know how to do it right, you do, but are looking for the fast buck
with the minimum effort. Tom V.

ps, Don't ever run me down on this board again,
if you got a personal problem, e-mail Ken and I
and we will work it out. I have personally built "World Champion" race motors at one point
in my life and can't be bull****ted like some
people, and neither can Ken.

[Goatman]

Before this gets out of hand............

I think the point everyone here is trying to make/trying to teach everyone here is that you have to check all your parts as no manufacturing process or person is perfect all the time. Unfortunately, with some parts, its a "hit or miss" thing. Is it a royal pain in the ass to do it? We all know that answer to that one. Is it worth it? If you get the parts that Ken claims he used to get, then you know the answer to that too. Me, personally, I'll be buying a Titan pump for my next motor, and even at the rediculous prices they're getting for those things, I'm checking it, just to be sure.

A for increased volume through a pickup tube, I'm no genious, but it seems to me, that if I ported my intake and left my heads and exhaust stock, there would be a slight increase in horsepower, just because the intake didn't flow as well as the heads from the factory. Other than that, my engine would only be as strong as my weakest part. If my heads and exhaust weren't ported/modified, than the "gain" from porting my intake would be small. Perhaps insubstantial, but, we're not talking about psi with an intake. Any increase in oil that you can give the pump gears would seem to me to be a good idea. If there is no difference in the gear ratios, then the increased pickup tube diameter is a small improvement, but an important one.