[paul6874]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Why cut up a perfectly solid "A- BODY" to weld, piece, by piece, into another rusty "A-BODY" when you can make a few cuts and accomplish the same thing by transfering a firewall/cowl?????? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Right On !!
I was wondering as I read down this thread if someone was going to make sense. (ohhh, that will jack some of you up ) )
I once knew a guy who had a 69 judge that he had replaced everything right down to the frame. The only original parts were the roof and the firewall. Another club member had picked up a 69 judge that had the firewall punched all the way back and needed to be replaced. You had to be there for the argument that ensued from guy number one that guy number two's car would not be an original GTO if he replaced the firewall and switched the tag. Would anyone really rather own the patch work quilt ???
I've owned GTO's for 25 years. I look at the big picture this way: Ahem,
As far as GTO's are concerned, a true "Collector" wants a 65 tripower,4sp. ragtop, or a 69 Judge. (carosel red of course). If you own one of these two cars you should do a "numbers match" restoration, take plenty of pictures, and sell it to the highest bidder. It would be wayyy to valuable to actually drive.
Most of the rest of them are for us " Enthusiasts". My 68 is one of about 100,000 4 speed Hardtops built. Nothing special about that. I could have done a "numbers match" restoration on it, but who cares? If I ever sold it does anyone really think some collector would buy it and trailer it from show to show? Doubtful.
I built the car to drive it. I added a bunch of stock options (power windows, antenna, etc.)
and by gosh, a close ratio steering box, radial tires, bigger sway bars (rear bar not "stock" on a 68!!!!) and a ram air iv cam to boot !! The list goes on and on. I just made sure that I didn't do anything that couldn't be undone. Still won a "best original muscle car" trophy at the kind of small show and shines 95% of us take our cars to. I know I could sell it for more the way it is, than if it was a "bone stock" 1 of only 100,000 built.
While I truly appreciate the effort and dedication it takes to restore a real piece of crap back to "original" I sometimes question the process.
After all, for most years, the GTO was just an option package was it not ???
( Ohhh.. there's food for thought eh? )
The point is, we all have our own definition when it comes to "restored" and "original" and "numbers matching" I'm certainly not condoning GTO clones that are built by some guy trying to turn a fast buck, but does anyone out there have a GTO with all the original sheet metal, and not a single reproduction piece on it?? Now that would be "original"

For what it's worth, If you are building the car for yourself, my vote is for the rebody. Fully document what you have done, and if you ever sell the car, represent it honestly. I doubt it will make any significant difference in the value of the car to the "enthusiast" that wants to buy it, and drive it. If you are doing it just to make a buck, part it out. You will make more money.

In the end,there will always be that guy at the show making that funny clucking sound that only the truly anal retentive make when they notice that your "reproduction" fan belts have the wrong date codes on them. Probably moan about it to his wife while they drag their "Trailer Queen" home with the pickup. Have pity on those poor souls. They have missed the entire point of owning a classic muscle car. Drive it, spin the tires, make lots of noise, scare old ladies, and make the gas and tire company's a little richer. Fully enjoy owning a piece of history.
If anyone has read this all the way to the end, thank you, and yes, I do feel much better now.

[SWEETJUDGE]

IF i decide to do this & i mean IF, i wouldnt mislead anyone, I would document, all work, but still feeling the negative side on this. Maybe I'll just part it out.

SO the VINS that i have from a wrecked & abandodned `69 JUDGE ARE GARBAGE??? should i throw them away, like the car was

DOES ANYBODY OR WOULD ANYBODY buy a set of vins???? no car

FYI, my PROSTREET GTO the only thing left from the factory is the roof, the rest has been hand made & fabricated. ITS MY CAR NOT FOR SALE, i pulled the vins of the firewall & windshield & attached to the new fabricated sheet metal.
i kept the car registered & insured throught the PRO STREET process.
TODAY its a street legal registerd & insured `69 GTO. NOT A COMPOSIT, but really NOT a gto to the purest, BUT TO ME THE ULTIMATE & BADDEST GTO AROUND

NOTE THE LICENSE PLATE

[rzrektd]

Each is their own on this topic. Good luck in what ever method you take. I just think anything regarding a vin swap is misleading. Even if you think it makes sense to do so because it will take less time to restore. This just tells me you can't step up to the plate when restoring a car correctly.

[Junqueboi]

Please. "Step-up to the plate correctly?". So you advocate spending 10 - 100% more hours & $ to cobble up a "correct" car rather than starting with something solid?

Maybe you need to realize that most of us have jobs, families, & lives to lead. I'll be damned if I'd waste all that money & precious time to "step up to the plate" when I could be spending the $/time on gas, road trips, other projects, etc.

Good grief, I say if everything is documented & nothing is misrepresented, do what's practical & get your car rolling. And don't give us crap about "if you don't have the $ to do it (your way), you don't deserve to own a GTO".

Not all of us have the luxury of learning how to weld/restore/etc either so we do what we can. My two cents.

[md1twal3]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Junqueboi:
Please. "Step-up to the plate correctly?". So you advocate spending 10 - 100% more hours & $ to cobble up a "correct" car rather than starting with something solid?

Maybe you need to realize that most of us have jobs, families, & lives to lead. I'll be damned if I'd waste all that money & precious time to "step up to the plate" when I could be spending the $/time on gas, road trips, other projects, etc.

Good grief, I say if everything is documented & nothing is misrepresented, do what's practical & get your car rolling. And don't give us crap about "if you don't have the $ to do it (your way), you don't deserve to own a GTO".

Not all of us have the luxury of learning how to weld/restore/etc either so we do what we can. My two cents. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AMEN! Why take the hard, expensive way to get the same end product?????

[68alpinebluegto]

Here is what I have done about a rotted out cowl, I replaced it. Scroll to the bottom of the page and look at the pictures.
68 GTO Restoration

[matrix]

Not going to argue the legalities. But to me the bare body shell is just another sheetmetal part. Makes no sense to repair the terribly rotten original when a rust free replacement is available. And I dont believe the repaired one will ever be as good as a rust free original no matter how skilled the person doing the work is. I have seen people do a very good job replacing panels but I could always tell. Maybe the average "Joe" couldnt tell but I could since I have a lot of experience in this area. I would document the car and the replacement of the body shell and disclose it to the buyer if you ever sell. This is the honest way to go. You may get a little less for the car but you will have a clear conscience.

[cat tracker]

We have gone down this road before. The bottom line is that when you remove a factory assigned serial number(vin tag) you have committed a criminal offense. It doesn't matter why or what you were going to do with it. I know an old carpenter who thinks like some of these guys who "restore" cars. He said has the same ORIGINAL hammer he started framing with 50 years ago. He said he has changed the head 3 times and the handle 10 times. - Dwight Sr.

[pippintook]

Dwight SR - "...The bottom line is that when you remove a factory assigned serial number(vin tag) you have committed a criminal offense...".
.
So, what happens if a car is involved in a severe crash and the firewall/cowl/VIN is destroyed/burned. The car can be fixed, though and the body shop get a new firwall/cowl/VIN. So, is the body shop (or anyone else that repairs this vehicle) committing a 'criminal' offence?
.
I would think most reasonable people would agree this is not a crimimal act.

[pippintook]

opps - meant to say, VIN tag is still intact...but, bodyshop can get new firewall/cowl and reuse the old VIN....this is basically the same idea as doing the rebody (ie. taking a rusted out body and replacing with a rust free shell).

[SWEETJUDGE]

MY BOTTOM LINE do we revive these cars or junk em ????????

im all for reviving aslong as NO ONE is MISLED into something they wernt aware of...

[cwolf]

[/QUOTE] SWEETJUDGE MY BOTTOM LINE do we revive these cars or junk em ????????

im all for reviving aslong as NO ONE is MISLED into something they wernt aware of... [/QUOTE]
I see no problem revive them cause if they all get junked who will remeber what they look like after we are gone? If you do like you say and tell the next person what you have done and have pictures and documentation I don't think there would be a problem.Now if I was going to buy a car and it's been cloned and the seller didn't disclose it that's a different story.

[SWEETJUDGE]

I ABSOLUTLY AGREE disclose evrything & document it!
I had a little scare with my judge. Some joker told me it was a dun up lemans.

i went nuts,paniced, & ASKED THE FORUMS for help
which i got. LUCKILY it was a BAD JOKE
i checked every #, build sheet & PHS

i really would have killed somebody if it was a fake. I TOLD the seller if this is a fake & i will find out, you WILL SEE ME AGAIN & i will not be happy. DUE TO THE CLONING GOING AROUND

i guess its how its represented at the time of the sale

[4SLASH6]

I say revive, but leave the shells vin in place,...I mean why bother with the switch at all? I once cloned an amx from a javelin, shi&% that car had more amx stuff on it when I got done than most originals......I sold it as a clone, without changing vin,....& feel I still got top $$ for it.

[Andre]

It is still 100% legal in the state of Florida to remove and replace a vin tag in the process of repair and restoration. The laws clearly state the process. It does not cause the car to get a new state issued VIN.

If anyone wants to see the law in Florida that pertains to this, I'll forward the link.

For me, I have had my '66 GTO since 1980. It was rusty then, so you can imagine how rusty it is now. I've got several other GTOs, I just never had the heart to part with this matching number tripower 4 speed car.

I bought a great 66 Lemans shell to salvage the body from. I'll use repo fenders, doors, nose, hood, interior, wood wheel, valve covers, ra manifolds, air cleaners, wiring harness, front bumper, tail light bezels etc.etc etc.

[cat tracker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MFC:
Dwight SR - "...The bottom line is that when you remove a factory assigned serial number(vin tag) you have committed a criminal offense...".
.
So, what happens if a car is involved in a severe crash and the firewall/cowl/VIN is destroyed/burned. The car can be fixed, though and the body shop get a new firwall/cowl/VIN. So, is the body shop (or anyone else that repairs this vehicle) committing a 'criminal' offence?
.
I would think most reasonable people would agree this is not a crimimal act. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

(1) If a car is hit that hard it is a total loss and the title is marked as such.
(2) Most reasonable people as you put it, have never dealt with badges with guns attached, lawyers, district attorneys, judges, juries, and criminal law. Until you have you will never know what I am talking about. - Dwight Sr.

[SWEETJUDGE]

A LOSS TO THEM IS NOTHING to us ITS EVERYTHING

those people wipe thier asses with $100 bills
we restore our cars with it

[cat tracker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SWEETJUDGE:
A LOSS TO THEM IS NOTHING to us ITS EVERYTHING

those people wipe thier asses with $100 bills
we restore our cars with it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


If you get caught tamering with a vin number you will replace the $100 bills. - Dwight Sr

(See attached)

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

During a phone conversation with Scott Tiemann, we were arguing over the efficacy of swapping VIN tags and rebodying cars.

He insisted it was OK, using all the flawed logic that all you boneheads are also using, to justify his position.

I then asked him "Hey, Scott; how many rust free GTOs have you sacrificed to do a body swap to save a rusty LeMans?"

"None."

"I rest my case, Scott."

Hint:

Follow the money.

[cwolf]

there are exceptions to every law you just need to find out from your DMV inspector in your area and get a copy of it and keep it for refernce