[TinInjun]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goatman:


Tin Injun, stay away from those "killer" $25 swap meet special Holleys that have been taken apart by Q-junk guys trying to figure out "what makes those darn things tick" and you'll have 90% of you're "tuning problems" taken care of. You get what you pay for.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excuse me. Where did I ever say I was buying 25 dollar swap meet special Holleys. I didn't. Plus I never said I had any tuning problems with a Holley. Stop grasping at straws with your replies Goatman. I can, and do know how to tune both carbs. I also know how both carbs work and have used both of them. The Holley is made basicly for one thing, wide open throttle performance, and it does that well. The Q-Junk was made to perform at many different throttle positions, and it does that well. If you think you can't make a Q-Junk perform, you are very mistaken. It can be made to run in the 10's very easily.
Before you start bad mouthing a certain item, learn as much about it as you can, you might be surprised what you don't know about the item.
Then you might learn something new. Could that be a first, I hope not.

BTW mechanical fuel pumps do have return lines. Your quote was:

"Return line for a manual pump? There is no such thing, nor qwould you need it if there were."

I hope you learned something from that post.

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"Run wild with an Indian, not with the crowd in a Chevy"

[This message has been edited by TinInjun (edited 08-24-2001).]

[71 T/A]

Yes, you're right - at the track there's mostly Holleys but I have seen a few Q-jets. Listen, Q-jets aren't junk and neither are Holleys.

Also, it's mostly Chevies, Fords and imports. Does that mean Pontiacs can't run because you don't see many of them?

Anyways, I spoke to Nunzi recently about this topic. He said about my carb, "It's a pretty good carb, but if it were me I'd use an 800 Holley double pumper."

I may try a Holley again someday, especially when I feel my combo is maxed out.
By the way, do you think the HP series Holleys are worth the extra two bills?

[shovelrog]

Hey 71TA did you have a 750 cfm q-jet before you tried that 850?How do you like the 850?I was thinking of buying one.I run a 750 q-jet now my new holley is in a box out in the garage.but what do I know I've only switched from harley's to pontiac's 2 years ago.
If they talk you out of the 850 q-jet and want to sell it let me know.

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smokem if you got em

[Old Man Taylor]

I think the biggest downside of the Q-jet is that it has not been made for a long time and there are fewer and fewer people that will spend the time with them, therefore the expertise is going away. They can be made to run very well, and some Holley's can be a pain in the a$$ to get set up right. I also know that from experience. Both carbs have their place, and I think it is very narrow minded to say there is only one answer. I do happen to have a Holley on my racecar. I also have been racing 37 years. In different circumstances I would not hesitate to run a Q-Jet. I also still run the more antiquated tri-power. With no other changes, it ran 0.15 seconds better that the best I could get out of my old 750 Holley, and that was comparing the first time out for the 3x2’s to a fully prepped Holley. Again, each setup has its advantages and disadvantages, but you cannot say that any of them is all bad or all good. It is true that you have more choices on flow capacity with the Holley. But maybe everyone doesn’t
Need that flexibility.

[carbking]

There is no ONE best choice. Go with what you (or your tuner) has experience with and parts (see next to last paragraph).

Addressing some of the other comments made in this thread.

Chronologically, Holley introduced the 4150 carburetor in 1957 (O.E.); Carter introduced the AFB in 1957 (O.E.); Rochester introduced the Q-Jet in 1965 (O.E.); and Carter introduced the TQ in 1969 (race only). The 4150, AFB, and Q-Jet were subsequently adapted to racing; the TQ was adapted to O.E.

Somewhere about 1964 Holley began supporting the race/aftermarket market and has supported same with tech and parts since. Whether one uses Holley or not, we all owe Holley a big thank you, and this is mine!

Carter began supporting the race/aftermarket market in the late 1960's as had Holley, with both parts and tech, but this support faded in the late 1970's, although strip kits are still available for the AFB series.

Today, with the exception of the aforementioned strip kits, parts for either Carter or Rochester are somewhat available in the aftermarket, whereas a massive selection of parts, and tech is available from Holley. With this in mind, it is probably easier, and less expensive to go fast with a Holley UNLESS one is experienced and has (or can fabricate) parts for one of the other brands. I have not included the Demon carb in this group, as I personally have no experience with them.


My personal choice is the TQ (or multiple AFB's) on large engines for either race or street, with the Q-Jet a close second. This doesn't make either right for all applications or everyone.


Sizing the carburetor and selecting the style of the carburetor to the complete application (not just the engine), is more important than brand selection.

Will now step down from soap box and accept all thoughtfully thrown bricks. Jon.



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Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.

[GTO Karl]

Goatman:

What kind of research scientist are you that you could make the loaded, unscientific, biased, unsupported, fallacy filled comments of your previous posts. This forum is for education, and to some extent, the delivery of opinion in an attempt to help people.

Your comments do niether.

Having owned a carb shop, I have built virtually every type there is...being a tuning fanatic...I have tried almost every type there is...and tuned heavily on each combo.

The single most common thread when it comes to carbs!: most people haven't a clue about the fundamental operation of carbs in general.

The fact is, virtually all carbs work the same...just different engineers chose different methods to accomplish the same tasks. Once you understand how a carb works in theory(and I mean the DETAILS!) then you can make any carb work.

Metering rods? What do you think a power valve is? It is a vacuum diaphhram that moves a rod to uncover an orifice when a certain pressure drop overcomes a spring. Thereby enrichening the mixture. Duh, that is the description of a power piston and metering rod assembly as well! It is simply a different engineering solution to a function that every carburator has...even Delortos.

And you only use the primary rods to adjust for fuel economy on the street, the jets are the full power delivery on a Qjet. On the secondary, the capability to adjust the fuel curve during the critical first 2 seconds of a pass, is provided through one screw, and a few well chosen and readily available parts.

Holleys are a unsophisticated device that is not simple to tune for many applications. Because the metering block is where most changes are needed, and the average person can't make those kinds of mods. The newest aftermarket versions are wonderfully adapted, modified, reengineered, and heavily developed products that offer great results out of the box for some applications...especially, lightweight, high stall, narrow rpm band "race cars". Many "race cars", especially among the Pontiac community, are heavy, medium stall, wide powerband, lower rpm combinations, that can benifit greatly from the tunability of the Qjet relative to the Holley or Demon. 60fts times, inparticular.

Although I prefer street strip, my car is more race than street, as are many of the cars owned by people on this forum. Two bracket points championships, 20yrs of racing, 10 yrs full time and in the top 5 in points. I believe gives me the oppropriate background to make comments on this thread. Not many cars run mid 11's on 92 octane, never get hot, have only 2200 stall, get 14 mpg, are driven daily, and can still win rounds and races, running on the same steel belted radials that I drive on every day. The people that know me personally can vouch for my car and skills. All I'm saying, is that the Qjet is a wonderful carb, but so are Demons. They both have strong points and weeknesses, much like Pontiac vs "other brands".

Holleys need significant modification to work well on street strip cars and on many "race cars" as well...this is why the Demon carbs are so popular and work so well...they are 40 yrs of learning, pushed into production for us to purchase and enjoy. But just try to get fuel economy out of one, they didn't bother to modify the single biggest tuning problem with any of the Holley type carbs out there...DOES ANYBODY KNOW OR HAVE THE KAHUNNA'S TO GUESS?

I think from your comments, Goatman, that I can safely, seriously doubt you have any clue as to what I am talking about when I asked that last question. That is because only people who actually understand carburators would know what the single biggest flaw in the Holley carb is when it comes to street strip, or heavy car performance, and the modifications needed to overcome this ongoing problem.

However, this reply from me is not about this thread, although my answer to the post would be that the Qjet is not limiting his performance in any way, assuming it is tuned right, and that he understands the basic functions of his carb, which it sounds like he does. It is about me breaking my rule of not getting involved in personal attacks or the politics of this board that sometimes drives me nuts. I broke my rules because your comments were unfair and unproductive to the workings of this entire board. Goatman, if you want to hate Qjets, thats fine with me. But a "scientist", would know how to give advice with enough information to back up his position, so as to provide an insightful perspective as to why you believe in your advice or course of action, without resorting to uninformative, unsupported viewpoints, regarding a subject with wide opinion and obviously varying results.

That said...Qjets are the easier carb to tune and to rebuild. Thats from someone who makes his living at it. Holleys and Demons are easier to change the float bowl gaskets on!

A couple screws this way or that way, does not a good carb make!

If you want to have an informed discussion as to the real differences in carbs, or fuel injection, which I understand thoroughly both mechenically and electronically(both hardware and software). Start a new thread and I will gladly join in without any personal attacks and with factual information to backup any opinions or claims I might make...

The fact that Holleys are under most hoods does not make an argument for Holleys. Throughout history it has been shown that what "everyone" is doing, has little to do with whether it is best...or right!

Sorry bout the tirade...

Qjets rule the world! I know this because there are few leaders, and since few people like Qjets, we must be the leaders. Since everyone owns a Holley, you must be part of the flock.

GTO Karl



[This message has been edited by GTO Karl (edited 08-25-2001).]

[TinInjun]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GTO Karl:
But just try to get fuel economy out of one, they didn't bother to modify the single biggest tuning problem with any of the Holley type carbs out there...DOES ANYBODY KNOW OR HAVE THE KAHUNNA'S TO GUESS?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll take the first guess. Does it have anything to do with the fact that the Holley has an idle circuit, and a main circuit but lacks any type of intermediate circuit?



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"Run wild with an Indian, not with the crowd in a Chevy"

[PROBRD]

Quite a few of the Dominators have intermediate systems.

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1/8th mile 6.56 @ 104
1/4 mile 10.43 @ 127

[GTO Karl]

TinInjun:

Close, but it will take a more accurate description of the problem before I give any answers.

Hint: Why is it difficult to tune for fuel economy in a Holley? Independent of street, race, or street strip.

Also, some Holley & Demon carbs come with a partial solution in the form of increased adjustability of various air bleeds and such...however, the main problem has still not been addressed in the basic design.

Karl

[Ken K]

I will take a guess, is a Holley missing a low speed circuit?

[Goatman]

Hey GTO Karl, that was an impressive book you wrote, too bad you haven't read the title of this section or some of my posts. My Research Scientist skills are evident, yours, well lets just say its not too hard to tell you've never been one.

THIS IS THE RACING SECTION, NOT THE STREET SECTION. WHO GIVES A DAMN ABOUT FUEL ECONOMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you want fuel economy, but a Honda. Holleys are the prefered choice of racers ALL OVER THE WORLD. As some others have pointed out before this latest post of mine, there are several people out there who will attest that a Holley is better in MANY WAYS to any Q-junk at any time. As I stated to 71 TA, go to the track and see for yourself, a Q-junk guy WILL NEVER SAY THAT, cause he'll just loose another lamb in the flock.

With all your carb rebuilding experience, you'd think you might have learned something from all that time at the track and at work, apparently not. All carbs essentially do the same thing, no sh@t, you're kidding. Power valves, I don't think so, read the title of the section again. At least you used a big word like Delortos, we're all impressed. Holleys are so unsofisticated that they're still being produced and used by EVERYONE, take your head out of your @ss. Many race cars are "heavy, medium stall, wide powerband" cars, no, those are called street cars, wake up and think about what you're typing before you type it. Not many cars run 11's on 92 octane, and never get hot, ever hear of a 3rd or 4th gen. supercharged F-body. Oh yeah, they get 27 MPG, not 14. Demons are popular because of their marketing and they do have some key features, but I have been talking to a couple of dyno operators who are running into problems with them and their performance. I don't have any specifics as of this time, yet. Their technology is still based around (gasp) a HOLLEY CARB. I wonder why they chose not to use the Q-junk? You Q-junk guys make this way too easy. I can do this all day. Not once have any of you produced any proof that a Q-junk can run with anybody today, and I know why, because its impossible.

You're right I don't have a clue as to what you have said, because its mostly all BS. I have given not only plenty of information, but have encouraged the young man to GO OUT INTO THE REAL WORLD AND SEE FOR HIMSELF. You have done nothing more than to add your opinion to the subject. I don't hate Q-junks, in fact I still have a car with one and it runs OK, but I would NEVER keep it if I did anything with the car that was at all performance oriented. Leaders for Q-junks, yeah they're just like the dinosaurs, extinct. When you can show me PROOF that a Q-junk can run with any of "my flock", I'll switch, but since I know you can't, I'll keep on being the fast sheep. Educate yourself and deflate your head.

Everytime someone asks a question here trying to get ahead, some old "points and Q-junks forever" guy comes out of the wood work and sends the seeker 20 years back instead of forward. EMBRACE TECHNOLOGY, its not going to hurt you, I promise. Take a look at what's going on around you OUTSIDE the world of Pontiacs, you might just be surprised at why Chevy and Ford guys can embarrass the fastest of us at will. Actually, you won't because you're still wondering why Edelbrock is making the "silly" aluminum heads when cast iron ones are just fine, right? They look real sharp underneath a Q-junk and cast iron intake, huh?

[Goatman]

You know what, this is stupid. Its not even worth fighting over, its just a carb.

If I offended anyone I'm sorry. I didn't mean for any of this to get personal. I want all of us to do well and have fun, that's the most important part of the whole sport. I personally don't feel that Q-jets have a place in racing (like you didn't know that already), but that doesn't mean they can't be used to some extent.

Different strokes for different folks.

[GTO Karl]

Well Goatman, thats pretty much what I was expecting. My joking about the Qjet being ruler of the world was over shadowed by your lack of ability to answer a question, or provide any evidence to back up your claims. All I said was...they are all old tech...all carbs. They can all be made to work.

The reason I brought up the fuel economy was two fold...it shows you don't know about carbs because you circumnavigate the question and throw out more attacks. Second, its because anyone who races owns a race car. When I show up at the track with my "street car", there is only "race cars" to put on the trailer in my class, Super Pro. And I can walk down the staging lanes pointing to all the cars who could use some tuning, most of which run Holleys. We call them "Ducks", because they're just waiting for the inconsistincies of they're cars to be taken advantage of by those who know what we are doing. Of course, this has nothing to do with the fact they run Holleys, since its just as easy to know nothing about tuning a Qjet, as you have made clear.

My problem isn't with your beliefs, or Qjets, or Holleys, or Demons, or injection. My problem is with the lack of information you provided to back up your claims. Also, with your attitude towards those of us who run 10's, 11's, and 12's, and show up for bracket races all over this country, week after week. Some trailer, others drive to the track, but the race section of this board applies to us as every other racer. I have a thousand time slips and a room full of trophys to say I am a racer. I've put 7 second and 17 second cars on the trailer for years. I've run heads up classes, slicks only classes, and regular brackets. Holleys, tri powers, thermoquads, afb's, dual afb's, dual Qjets, Demons, spread bores, square flange, Dominators, 600 center squirters, multiple Webers on sixes and V8's, Delortos on sandrails, various other carbs, and fuel injection. I would say I have some experience, where is your list? I build my own engines, do my own valve grinds and porting, choose my own cams, and drive my 64 every day. I'm tooting my own horn and I admit it, but I'm not throwing out a bunch of advice without backing it up at least a little. And, although many other people on this board throw out advice without having the background in the subject they are refering, you are the only one to get me riled up enough to say anything, since you claim to be a "research scientist", and yet, the way you make your point in various posts, has nothing to do with science, and everythiing to do with touting your opinion with no factual info to back it up. Anecdotle evidence, of others running Holleys on fast cars is not evidence worthy of a "scientist". It only means that Holleys work also, and that there are many ways to solve a problem.

I run Qjets for two reasons:

Because it is one more low cost way to make HP. Relative to an $6-800 Demon.

And because I have never made more HP with any of the 50 or so Holleys I have tried in the past, although most of the Holleys ran as good as my Qjet, they weren't better. I always gave up throttle response and fuel economy.

As for this being a race section. There is many a race car that runs a Qjet, Some are forced too by the rules, others make the choice for themselves. All I have been trying to say, is that once you understand carbs and how they function(the DETAILS!), it really doesn't matter which carb you run. What matters is booster signal strength, throat size vs venturi size, atomization quality, adjustability(tunability), intake manifold design vs carb choice, cfm, and intended use. You are right that many heavy cars with tight converters use Holleys or Demons, I usually out 60ft them on my local tire store radials (low 1.70's). The bulk of the world and the people on this board race 10 and 11 second cars. And if they wanted to go faster, they could always use 2 Qjets, not that it would be the best choice. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

All I know, is I have substantially more experience than most with carburators, Qjets work well, and are the best choice for some applications, Demons are better for others...but considering that I could buy a set of custom JE pistons with a relocated and smaller, lighter ring set, for the price of a Demon carb, knowing full well my Qjet will run right there at the finish, I'll take the pistons.

I have not provided a detailed, analytical, engineering type response about carburator function, because as anyone who can read, can understand that I have not tried to take a side on the Qjet vs Holley debate here...I like Qjets for various reasons, but other carbs work fine. It is usually not the carb that is a problem anyway, but the person who is trying to race the car, and the lack of education most have in tuning, plus the buy new gadget to solve problem mentality prevalent in the USA.

And this is the first time since joining this board that I have taken a stance against an individual for his posts. I don't know you personally, and don't have anything against you except that your posts are inflamatory, and don't provide any thoughtful or insightful information with which to continue a discussion. If I had wanted to share the opinion that Holleys were a better choice for 71 T/A, I would have listed the appropriate reasons for my belief. Meaning technical, or even personal anacdotle evidence(which I have no problem with, only the reference to others anacdotle evidence). This would lead to a good, technical discussion of the various points brought up...

71 T/A...I'm sorry your topic turned this direction, and I hope you can see my point. Every member has the right to say what he wants(up to the point of ccass taking objection). I just think this board would be much more interesting if the discussions weren't all about mudslinging. I know I am the most guilty of this just now, but I don't think the threads would dissolve so quickly if an effort was made to teach based on the scientific method instead of just bashing others opinions.

Again, Goatman, you might be the sharpest guy out there, and the best research scientist where you work, but you have not put your skills on display, only your lack thereof...

Karl

[Hot Rod]

Hey Goatman,
What do alot of the GM Stockers run that run well into the 10 second range and what about the Super stock class how about high 8 second passes at best, I would say that the Q-jet works just fine but to say that the Holley is current with the technology of today!!!! Hahahahahahah!!! LOL!!!!! You must be kidding! I will admit that I run a 1050 and like it very much but if I had the time and extra money I would build a class car and try my luck a that type of racing! But to say that the Q-Jet is junk is way off base and a total lack of knowledge on how they work. They are a pain in the arse to set up but once they are they are very good at what they have to do which is to get the right amount of fuel to the combustion chamber. Oh buy the way have you look at the cars that are running in Top/Stock low 10.30's and what are they running Rochester Q-Jets on the GM cars!!!!!

I am busting youe balls and I do respect you opinion but I think you need to try one that is set up for your combination, because I think if you do you will change your mind very quickly!!!!!!!

Hot Rod

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Outlaw Pontiac Racers Association
"For Those Who Live the Legend"

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: The unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

[71 T/A]

Sometimes, I think choice of carb is total preference, what you've seen work and what you're used to running on your cars. When Nunzi tells me he'd run an 800 double pumper, I know he's telling me that because that's what he's always run and had success with. I value his opinion and know it's hard to argue with someone with over 30 years of experience. But the main reason I went with the Q-jet is how well the stock 800 Q-jet runs on my 455HO 71 T/A. After all, I smoked (beat him by 3-4 cars) a friend's 650 holley double pumper equipped 73 Z-28 that had 3.73 gears, no a/c and headers - all advantages over my 3.42, a/c & exhaust manifolds. Plus, I like the Q-jet on the street. It always idles consistently, starts great and will last for years between rebuilds. With the Holleys, I have experienced great performance
but with many more problems.

[GTO Karl]

Since a couple people tried to answer my question. Here is the answer:

The power valve is the power enrichment circuit of the Holley carb. It has a calibrated orifice that is the same size for all model carbs. They just come with different springs to cause them to activate at different levels of vacuum.

Once you have tuned your car for max full throttle performance (using your jets), you have effectively created a air fuel ratio that includes both the fuel from the jets, and the fuel from the enrichment circuit.

This ratio for max performance is always going to be on the rich side, relative to what you need for part throttle, light load operation. If you want to lean your carb for part throttle operation, you would need to change the jets, thereby changing your max performance settings. You could increase the secondary jetting and just lean the primary. But usually you only want to experiment with this to try to improve perf.

The solution is to lean the primary as far as you can to increase your fuel economy and throttle response, then drill the orifice in the power valve larger by the difference in the full power and cruise jetting.

Now you have a lean cruise and a tuned, full power enrichment circuit.

It would have been nice if this problem had been addressed in the redesign that created the Demon series of carbs.

This is why metering rods exist and are so effective in there job.

The only reason I brought this up, is because, it is something I rarely here anyone talk about, and yet, it is one of the most fundemental things you should know if you run a Holley or Demon carb.

This includes race or street. Personally, I want my fuel curve to be correct while I'm doing my burnout, driving down the return road, cruising through the pits, everywhere. It will keep your plugs from loading up.

And if someone is going to give me advice about which carb I should use, they should know these things. Also, I would want to know whether they recomend a carb series with straght boosters, dogleg boosters, or annular discharge. Which throat and butterfly size might work best and why. There are so many different Holley and Demon carbs to choose from...it is very important to know which one to spend your money on and have some idea as to why.

The engine doesn't care how the fuel and air arrives. Metering rods, power valves, injectors, jets, Rochesters, Holleys, or Flying Toilets... All it cares about is the mixture ratio and quality, and that the device is not a restriction to the required quantity.

I'm going to keep experimenting with all types of carbs and injection, because I think it is fun to tinker and educate myself. But I will continue, for the most part, to run a Qjet on my bracket car, because people say you can't, because I like the way they work, because the money for a Demon carb can make HP somewhere else.

Karl

[Goatman]

Karl, thanks. Boy, for someone who has a list like that and who has put seven second cars on "the trailer", I guess you don't need to put forth any scientific info either, right? I guess I have to because you don't know me, right. Wrong.

Hot Rod, thanks for illustrating my point perfectly. Q-junks are a pain in the ass to set up and I don't have the money and time to do it either, especially when a Holley is sooooooo much easier. Karl, you must be a millionaire.

71TA, take Nunzi's advice. He's done it all, I've never heard a thing about Karl, except his own chest thumping. Kinda sounds like an empty barrel.

As far as my own meager experience goes, I'll say it again, for the fifth time. Go to the track, see what the people are running, and then make your decision based on all the facts. Q-junk guys still aren't saying that, even after I've mentioned it five times. Even though, that is the most logicall and scientific way to go about getting knowledge, except in Karl's eyes, of course. That isn't scientific at all. He would know, he rebuild's Q-junks for a living (must be real profitable).

Karl doesn't impress me much at all, even with his so called list of accolades, he must be some kind of Pontiac hero though, even bigger than Nunzi. He brings his street car to a race car race and puts a hurtin' on all kinds of folks. Hell, he even drives his car to and from the track. Wow, he's my hero. Nobody else has ever done that before. Save the bull sh*t for someone who's in the market Karl. I'm not buying.

[GTO Karl]

Well, I never claimed to be a "research scientist" in my profile. I'm just a low buck bracket racer. I have no desire to own a pickup and a trailer to sit beside my house, when I can drive to the track. In the Pacific NW, plenty know my car and my talents, but that is of no consequence. Since I am only trying to get people to think before they buy, where as you have offered zilch. At least I talked some about carb design and the need to take many things into account.

Goatman, before I started my attack on the way you present information in your posts, I searched and read each of the posts you have ever made. I would ask anyone who cares to search and read my posts, you will find I am opinionated, like running old parts cause there cheap, but I always take the time to provide an insight and description of why I make the claims that I do, and I'm always careful not to be judgemental of others or use durogetory mudslinging about people or products.

Until Now!

I just hope your "scientist" skills aren't in anyway connected to any product I might someday use.

Thats my last word on this subject, so go ahead and get in yours.

Karl

[Goatman]

Karl, I swear you must be related to Gach. You're ignorance and inability to READ posts before you type something I think has just moved you into legendary status.

By the way, I am one of 5 people in the world, not the country, but the WORLD, that does what I do. I keep this country safe, EVERYDAY. You use my products everytime you buy something, including your beloved, worthless, Q-junks. I work for the government, by issue of the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. You may remember him, the most powerful man in the world. My customers are the Sercret Service and the Beaureu of Engraving and Printing. My project is listed as Secret and I have passed EVERY test ever laid down before me. Including ripping your posts to the juvenile "it gets better gas milage" crap that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU WHO RESPONDED TO THIS THREAD said to me at one time or another. If that's all you've got, then I don't need to waste my time or intellect with you.

You researched all my posts, huh. That was quick since its been over a hundred. Next time try reading them, its part of researching. If the words I use are too big, I'll bring it down to a nice easy fourth grade level for you. AGAIN I WILL STATE, GO TO THE TRACK AND SEE WHAT EVERYONE ELSE IS RUNNING AND WHY THEY CHOSE THAT METHOD. Karl, give me one, just one piece of science. You can't even give me the "actuall" gas milage improvements that all you guys keep on bragging about. I'm not impressed, but, I know, I know, its me who isn't providing anything. Sure, if you ever intended on removing your head from your anus, now would be a good time.

By the way, I think the term "low buck" you used to describe yourself (and I'll even add to that with your answers) fits real nice. You run old parts because they're "cheap", well that's all I need to know about you. You get what you pay for and I can tell with an attitude like that, you're a second rate, stop on the side of the highway and get that one PMD hubcap that's worth 15 cents at the local swap meet type of guy. You're information and opinions reek of your attitude and I think anyone who would intentionally smear a complete and total strangers' professional ability to make decisions, just because you can't understand what that person is saying or getting at, shows myself and everyone else on this board exactly what kind of guy you really are.

But I know, you're always "careful not to be judgemental of others or use 'durogetory' mudslinging about people or products". Yeah sure, except when you feel like it, right. If you're such a fence sitter, why did you even respond to this so vehemently (that means with passion and emotion)?

I know you won't answer this or any other question I've thrown at you over the last three books of BS you've wrote, so I'm just going to ignore the rest of you're completely unintelligable (that means not clear) postings.

Have a nice time at the junkyards, looking for all those Q-junk jewels.

[Hot Rod]

Goatman,
Why in the hell would you post what you do for this Government! "That don't Impress Me Much"! Once you started with the Holyer than now attitude it went down hill from there. There is no doubdt that you have a specific knowledge on what works for you and a lot of other racers out there, you gave your opinion and when a few other people posted a negative post on your negative opinion, you bared you backside and if you are what you say you are one would think you would have acted more professional! I am not saying this to put a burr under your saddle it's just the appearence that is all. I have done work for many of the Federal Agency's also and have many friends that are in high positions at those agency's and not one of them would have acted the way you have on something as this post. And I believe you know just what I mean!

This guy just wanted some simple help with his 12 second car and it turned into a huge pissing match and all who were involved know it, hell I have now idea why the hell I even commented on this thread. Well I will not be drawn into a personal attack on you or anyone else, but there is no reason for you to go on the defensive when someone else has a different opinion.
So please take your negative high and mighty attitude somewhere else like the CP or someother nit wit site, because no one here on the PY like's this type of attitude including me!!!

Just please try to look at your posts from someone else eye's and you will see what I am talking about. The substance of what you wrote about make's perfect sence looking at it from one side of the fence, but looking at it from someone else's point of view you only brought down the good information that you posted. And I think that I am not the only one that see's it that way! So please keep posting as long as it doesn't get personal, and that should go for us all.

Just my .02 worth!

And one last thing Goatman First impressions are very important but the last one's are the most important one's that count!!!!!!!!!

Rodney

[This message has been edited by Hot Rod (edited 08-26-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Hot Rod (edited 08-26-2001).]