[Bermuda Blue]

I believe there is a difference between "original" and "numbers matching". If the seller never stated "original" (in words or writing), it may be difficult to get damages in a court.

[Todd Kozak]

I'm going to look at a 69 Judge today, heres my checklist of things to bring: 1) my lawyer
2)my restoration expert
3)my pontiac mechanic
4)my accountant
5)a big bag of cash
We should start a reality TV show a la The Apprentice, where guys go and negotiate and buy rare musclecars, restore them and then sell them on ebay , the biggest profit wins and the winner gets his head on a platter on PY forums for being so successful

[carbking]

I can make no comment on a restamped or service replacement block.

However, when it comes to carburetors: a service replacement (OF THE SAME PART NUMBER) is worth from 1/3 to 1/2 of an original. A restamped carburetor has no value other than for the unmolested parts.

Jon.

[taximan]

great idea !!!

[BLKBRD]

Bermuda Blue,

I agree with you completely. Although the two terms are generally considered one in the same, they aren't. I suspect that twenty years ago, you could use the term "numbers matching", and everyone would assume that you meant original. I have no intention of taking the guy to court, and since the car has only increased in value, I don't suspect that I'd have much of an argument.

[TJH]

Just another thought (and, playing devil's advocate)- How exactly did you ascertain that the block was restamped? From what I have gathered reading this, it was from conversations with people who had known of the car. Nothing on the engine itself, no part of the stamping, and nothing on the castings, indicate anything other than an engine VIN stamp that matches that of the vehicle.
Under these circumstances, what you really have is nothing but some person's memory, and a bit of conjecture. There is nothing in writing, or that can be produced in court, that would show anything more concrete. Memories of "people familiar with the car" (although, never actually owning it) won't hold any weight whatsoever in any type of lawsuit against the seller.
If the engine date codes are correct, has the correct RA parts, and bears VIN and engine code stamps that are identical to those stamped by GM at the factory, I'd say stop losing sleep over it. The faded memories of the people that you spoke with may not be perfect, either, and beating yourself up over this has no value.

[Steve Hoog]

I admit I've drank a few six packs and slept with even more fat women since that time long ago, but I was pretty darn close on recalling the details.

[md1twal3]

Originally Posted by steved400

I admit I've drank a few six packs and slept with even more fat women since that time long ago, but I was pretty darn close on recalling the details.

Without questioning memory and what people said, did you find any indicators on the block that prove it as a restamp? If so, what was it? (if you don't mind sharing).

[Steve Hoog]

This is way off track.

I suggested to BLKBRD; from what I remembered about the car, that it suddenly reappearing with the number match block was questionable. Especially after hearing the story the seller gave him about how the block and car were magically reunited. So he dug a little deeper and has concluded that it's highly likely he was dubbed. At least that is my synopsis of the current posistion.

At any rate, it all led to some VERY interesting stories from the original dealers/partners that ordered the car. And there is still a good chance this guy in Tulsa may have the block, as soon as he gets done fighting wild fires he promises to look into the matter for BLKBRD.

[racerboy]

Originally Posted by Bermuda Blue

I believe there is a difference between "original" and "numbers matching". If the seller never stated "original" (in words or writing), it may be difficult to get damages in a court.

Depends on the state. Where did you buy the car?

Frank

[racerboy]

Originally Posted by TJH

Under these circumstances, what you really have is nothing but some person's memory, and a bit of conjecture. There is nothing in writing, or that can be produced in court, that would show anything more concrete. Memories of "people familiar with the car" (although, never actually owning it) won't hold any weight whatsoever in any type of lawsuit against the seller.

This doesn't eviscerate the argument, just makes the proofs that much more difficult. Certainly not insurmountable.

I realize that you are not interested in pursuing a claim, so this point is moot.

Frank

[weranc55]

I agree with what TJH said above. Someone told me that there was a way to tell if a block had been machined and then restamped. He said that the original stamps leave a indentation deep in the metal. I dont know if he is full of Sh t but it would be interesting if they could do that. I have the same issue with my ra4. The guy who I purchased it from states that its the oringal block but that he stored it for 15 years face down and then had to machine the front because it was so rusty? The money I paid for the car was not high because he could not prove it was the original block. I purchased a SR block but would hate to put that in there and then some day find out it was the original motor.

[JKGTO]

BLKBRD,
I remembered talking with you via email about your engine and carb but could not recall the exact details. Sounds like you have uncovered more info since then. Its too bad cars like this have had the engines removed from them. I personally know of only 2 69 Judges with RAIV and column shift automatic/bench seat combination-yours and mine. Jim

['ol Pinion head]

The subject of chasing down SR RA blocks & shortblocks for RA cars is to say the least, amusing. Unless the car had the shortblock warranteed through the dealer & zone office & one has real paperwork to support the installation of this SR, what does one have? Whether one wants to hear it or not, they've got an NOM car with a "bought" SR block, how "correct" can that be???

Original block or flawless restamped correct dated replacement...
Given an original RA engine that's been blown up at least once, probably been sleeved & decked, had some dufus stamping a tracking number on the the block face... no thanks, I'd rather pay to have a:

-Correct quality casting (no more than .030 bored & honed, ck'ed for core shift)
-Correctly linebored & capped
-Correct dated
-Correct surfaced & correct font code stamped...
Correct REPLACEMENT RA block... call it a restamp if you like, but
IF, the day ever came, & I was going to sell one of my keepers car with
such a block, I'd represent the car as such.

[BLKBRD]

TJH,

The information that I've been able to aquire (thanks to Steved400) is without question accurate. Not only did Steved400 nearly purchase this car in 1981 (at which point it had a 455 c.i. in it), but he put me in touch with a friend of his that actually bought the car in 1991. In 1991, it still had the 455 in it. This guy then sold the car to his brother, whom I also spoke with, and he verified that the car still had the 455 in it when he sold it to the guy that I bought it from. I know that it is the same car, because I was given pictures of the car in this guys driveway that had been taken by the guy that I bought it from. Sometime during the 10 year period that the guy that I bought it from owned it, it re-emerged as a numbers matching car. Let me also add that this car came with a rust free shell that the guy was going to use for a body swap. What does that tell you. Another PY member, who I'll leave out of this unless he doesn't mind being mentioned, mentioned to me some time ago that he had been told by the guy that I bought the car from that the engine was not the original and had been purchased from some outfit in Michigan. That conversation occured roughly 6 months before I bought it.

I'm not losing sleep or beating myself up over this, although I probably should be. The only reason that I'm inquiring about value is that the car was scheduled to go into the shop next month to begin a rather expensive restoration. I don't want to end up spending 50% more on the resto than this car is worth. I did enough of that when I was 18. There is no question that I'll need to adjust my resto budget, I just want to get an idea as to how much.

[Steve Hoog]

Ok, I'll go out on the limb. It's hard to do for two reason; one this is out of my league, and two prices are insane right now.

To me a bench seat white IV Judge is out of the ordinary, and I very much like the combo.

As the car sits, I say it's a $37,000 car.

I say with the motor, $62,000.

High level restore without the original motor, $115,000.

Same if the motor is found, $165,000.

Now if I restored the car, I'd need heavy lift springs in the rear because I like to cruise with a couple of big bottom girls and a full ice chest in the trunk. This is Redneck Country were I'm from, we do things a little different out here. Anyone comes this way, you're welcome to sleep in my Tpee.

[Mike Lannom]

I think it's kinda odd that it seems more GTO's prior to vin stamping seem to have the original engines and nobody questions the cars value. Knowing what I have seen in the car hobby I wouldn't pay extra for a numbers matching car unless I have known the car since new. BLKBIRD I wouldn't worry about a restamp block I think original engines are way over rated and are going to become less an issue as time passes. This is only my $.02 worth

[BLKBRD]

Mike,

Thanks for the response. It appears that opinions vary drastically on this subject. I also agree with your assessment as to having knowledge of the car since new. I never thought that I would have to question the integrity of a vehicle that was properly stamped. Unfortunately, that will alway be on my mind when making future purchases.

[Bermuda Blue]

been thinking about the original issue here: value of a car w/ original vs. restamped or non-original motor.

IMO, an NOM (not original motor) car will bring about 10% less that a comparalbe car w/ the original motor. But that original motor car better have rock-solid documentation.

For example:
Judge w/ original motor & docs.: $100,000.00
Similar Judge w/ out original motor: $90,000.00

What do you guys think?

[Mike Lannom]

If your grandma owned the car and you knew for sure then I would agree {maybe even as high as 20% more} but each year people are better at restoring cars and it's more difficult to spot a fake.