[unruhjonny]

were there canadian built cars that might have retained the "Tempest" badging? - would the vin tell me if it's a Canadian built car? (I'm guessing it would)

My previous opinion was that I prefered the '70 Tempests because the 71-72 'Tempests' all had the same bumper as a 70-72 Lemans; and I liked the smaller bumper to begin with...

The more I look into these cars, the more I like them.

[BR57]

I am no 70-72 Tempest/T-37/GT-37/LeMans GT/ LeMans/ LeMans Sport/GTO expert but I do know these cars were built here in Canada. 1970's were I believe built in Oshawa which is plant #1 in the VIN. I believe 1971 and 1972 cars were built at Ste.Therese which is plant #2 in the VIN. I have never seen a 1970 with a Chevrolet V8 engine but 1971 and 1972 cars did get Chevrolet V8 engines.

My 1970 GM Canada brochure says that Tempest was only available as a 2dr. Coupe or 4 dr. Sedan. This is different from a lot of information posted here that says a 2dr. Hardtop was available in 1970 as a Tempest or T37.

Going from memory I believe I have seen 1971 Tempest's here and think that it was not until 1972 that GM Canada went to the T-37 designation and in fact may have used these designations concurrently.

So unruhjonny you may be correct. GM Canada often produced different models and trim levels, especially in the Pontiac line. Chevrolet powered Strato Chief, Laurentian and Parisienne are all models offered in Canada only in those days. The 2+2 was available through 1970 with Chevrolet engines, 327, 350, 396, 427 and 454. Remember also that 1970 was the first year that the Tempest/LeMans was offered in Canada, replacing the Beaumont line of cars sold by Pontiac.

BTW, GTO's were only made in Oshawa in 1970 and 1973. GTO's made in Canada never got Chevrolet engines, always Pontiac. Beaumonts however only got Chevrolet engines with 396 being the largest V8 offered.

[BR57]

GM Canada used the name Tempest on Pontiacs for a long time. Just saying that in Canada marketing and names are different so as has been said here already, "never say never" Wikipedia says Pontiac retired the Tempest name forever in 1971 but that's just not true. The link below shows some for sale today:

http://www.canadatrader.com/result/r...icedOnly=false

[John V.]

Well, they quit badging Pontiacs with "GTO" after 1974. Yet, you can find examples built around the world that were badged "GTO" in the years since (and not just the recent Aussie version).

For '70-'72, it is my understanding that Pontiacs built in Canada were identical to those built at US Final Assembly Plants. The VIN coding would identify the Final Plant as Oshawa but same Style Codes as used in the US. UNLESS they were built as so-called Canadian Pontiacs, in which case they were specifically built for the Canadian market and not sold in the US. I've never quite understood whether a Canadian Pontiac was supported by Pontiac in the US or by Chevy, or perhaps they had their own independent Divisional structure with styling and design done in Canada. In other words, did Pontiac (US) design them or were they developed outside the control of Pontiac (US).

AFAIK, '70 GTO's built at Oshawa were not strictly for the Canadian market. Except perhaps for some minor differences resulting from local vendor production of parts, such a GTO should be virtually indistinguishable from one produced by a US Final Plant. And the car sitting on a new car dealer lot in Wisconsin might have come from Oshawa as easily as from Pontiac, Mich.

In this case, if we are talking about Pontiac (US) A bodies, I believe the Tempest badge disappeared after '70 and was not applied on any car whether it was built in Canada or the US. If Canada produced a car after '70 and put Tempest badging on it, it was a Canadian market only car. It may have resembled a US Pontiac A body but would have been distinctly different, I would assume complete with unique Style Codes & VIN's.

I'm sure some Canadians have a better knowledge of that history than me and I would like to know if I am off-target.

[BR57]

I agree with your asessment of the 1970 cars but the 71 and 72 moved to Ste. Therese for production and they definitely got Chevrolet V8 power. They also got Pontiac power depending on what you ordered, a 400 for example, but a 350 was usually a Chevy small block. These cars were likely not exported to the US. Anyway there are tons of Canadian only market cars with destinctive trim and badges, just need some real oldtimer to chime in who may have worked for the General who would know for sure. Lots of Canadian built Oldsmobiles got Chevy parts too by the way. Canadian Buicks were originally McGlaughlin Buicks and were built by the McGlaughlin Carriage Works. These Buicks are known for their quality and craftsmanship. Colonel Sam McLaughlin was President of GM Canada up to 1945 and GM Canada is wholely owned by General Motors US, so I'd say control of what happens here is in the US board room. Current GM Canada President is a US Citizen as far as I know. Recognizing a different culture and making products to meet it's needs is just good business I suppose.

I was in South America recently and saw plenty of GM models I never saw here and I mean cars and trucks from the 50's, 60's and 70's.

Acadian SS? Pontiac Wave? Grand Parisienne? Beaumont SD? a 1973 Astre? I think these are all Canadian only cars too, not to mention those 1990 Tempests linked above.

[Lloyd-TX]

Originally Posted by BR57

GM Canada used the name Tempest on Pontiacs for a long time. Just saying that in Canada marketing and names are different so as has been said here already, "never say never" Wikipedia says Pontiac retired the Tempest name forever in 1971 but that's just not true. The link below shows some for sale today:

http://www.canadatrader.com/result/r...icedOnly=false

Ha - a re-badged chebbie Corsica.

['ol Pinion head]

Originally Posted by John V.

OPH, the '70 Tempest T-37 Hardtop Coupe didn't come out "very late in the '70 model year". It was available many months before late May.......

I don't charge for information, if I think I can be helpful to somebody here, I share what I know and if it is an opinion, I try to make that clear. IMO, too many opinions parade as facts. If it is your opinion that I don't know what I'm talking about, you're entitled to it. If you have facts that contradict what I have posted, just post them. Expressing an opinion for the purpose of casting doubt on what I posted without actual facts isn't helpful to me, I don't think it is valuable to anyone I am offering help to on this thread either.

John, Giving 2nd hand documentation like Delco info is what gives me a great big chuckle. Very typical of the bookworm car experts that love to go on & on paragraph after paragraph flowing a stream of truths mixed in with their own opinions. Opinions are like #ssholes, everyone has one. My personal research data on T-37 & GT-37 production is VERY far reaching, I've yet to run across anyone who was willing to go the extra mile for such hands on information. Beginning with hands on recording of data in the mid '80's, this quest has not diminished at all over the last 20 years. Data which has encompassed hundreds of VIN's, cowl tag data, castng dates, assembly numbers, stamped date codes such as bumper dating & fender piercing codes has all been recorded.

One thing that has never been proved, ever in yarding through hundreds of yards over this country, is that '70 T-37's were introduced early in the Spring of 70. In correspondence to 100's of GT-37 survey respondents I've always used the Spring of '70 as a basic timeline. Late May of '70 is much closer. Just going through the last 5 years data, every original '70 T-37 I've examined had a body build date of 05D or later. GT-37's parallel the same trend.

Distributors, for the last 18 years I've been ck'ing & pulling original Pontiac distributers. Many for retail, others like the 1112008 as a part of the specialty core end of my restoration services business. What's a specialty core... with certain core parts like the "2008", I'm more concerned about the original internal parts being intact vs selling the distrib to an end user as a "2008". Over these years, I've noticed certain trends with what engine plant assemblers installed in original engines. In certain cases, like the ''1952" for '69 models, very often the engine that original engineering sheets, close dated MPC's, & even Delco manuals says a certain distributor is supposed to be in, has proven to be wrong! This also has proven true in respects to distributors like the 1148 & the 2007, esp late in the production year.

Without hands on documentation, we would all be reduced to supposition & going by what partbooks said. Am thankful I had a flexible job in the mid 80's & the ability to be out in the yards working a ton & documenting as I went along. This time really skyrocketted in '89 when I left punching another man's clock. Owe alot of my interest in "numbers" to buying my 1st GT-37 & even though it had been off the road since '78, the mysterys it presented in chasing down correct parts.

[BR57]

Originally Posted by Lloyd-TX

Ha - a re-badged chebbie Corsica.

Are we sure? Maybe a Corsica is a re-badged Pontiac Tempest? The chicken or the egg, nobody knows? LOL.

[unruhjonny]

all I know is that this summer I'm gonna pay close attention to any "Tempests" that have the 70 Lemans/GT-37 type bumpers... mabey I'll even record the vins of some 71-72 cars, because I know I will see a couple.

quote:
John V.
"In this case, if we are talking about Pontiac (US) A bodies..."

This is the root of my posting.
I do not necissarily see USA vs Canadian built cars seperatly, and since I'm surrounded by "Canadian" car's 351 days a year (presuming 2 weeks of holidays state-side) I am not always aware of specific differnces between some Canadian vs USA built models...

If no one told me that an Acadian/Beaumont was a Canadian specific Model, I wouldn't have though for another second about it.

But working under the premise that on the other side of the 49th, the "Tempest" namplate was dropped after model year 1970, that would stand to make sense as to why I saw so many T-37's at All American Classics (Vancouver WA).

Before this thread, I had always percieved that a T-37 was a "roadrunner" for Pontiac -> a step above Tempest, which was a trim level below a Lemans... I thought that the GT-37, was a more loaded version of the T-37...
To further elaborate, I understood that (in concept) the T-37 was to the GTO like a Formula is to the T/A; a gauranteed V8, and not much else -> with no 'comfort' options being included... (this parralell really works when comparing the 71-74 Formula to the T-37, because the L30 was the standard engine for those years of Formulas)

Wasn't the Tempest badge also used for a rebadged Suzuki (also presumably sold as a Geo) in the late 80's or early 90's? (or was that a Lemans?)

[Lloyd-TX]

Jonny - FYI - ALL 1970 Pontiac A-body cars used the exact same front bumper, excepting the GTO of course. Same with the '71-'72 Pontiac A-body cars - all had the same front bumper, unless one ordered the T41 endura appearance package or a GTO.

The T-37 was not conceived to compete with the Roadrunner, but rather simply a rebadge for the aging Tempest nameplate. Beginning in 1971 1/2 Pontiac offered the Ventura II as their entry level offering, and therefor the "usefulness" of having a rubber mat cheapie A-body lost it's marketing appeal. Thus the Tempest AND T-37 monikers went away after 1971, leaving the LeMans, LeMans Sport, GTO and the LeMans GT to carry the Pontiac mid-size banner.

The GT-37 probably was born to compete with the Roadrunner. No way the GT-37 with it's base 350 2V would ever be able to compete with the Roadrunner's base 383 4V though. Simply a young person's entry level performance appearance package, unless optionally equipped of course!

[442w30]

Lloyd, you are absolutely correct. I think the magazines are the ones responsible for promoting the T-37 as a Road Runner competitor. I believe it merely was a "spring special" Tempest to kick start sales.

Of course, the GT-37 was the Road Runner competitor, coming from the ashes of the stillborn ET.

[BR57]

T-37: Began life as the cheapest, least equipped, six-cylinder econo car for retired folks, starting families or others who wanted basic transportation but wanted a Pontiac nameplate.

GT-37: Began life as alternative to GTO. Had 8 cylinder standard, 3 speed floor shift, Rally II wheels, dual exhausts, hood pins and some stripes. Offered as entry level Pontiac muscle car to under 30 market segment who could not afford price of a GTO or insurance premiums of GTO.

This was the marketing position of the model nameplates, however, most options available throughout the line could be ordered. This is how one finds T-37's with 400's or 455's or FM radios or A/C or whatever.

[Jack Peters]

AND the T-37 w/455HO our RR'd the RR, GTO'd the GTO, SS'd the SS, SCJ'd the SCJ, 442'd the 442, etc., for '71.

LOL