[BruceWilkie]

War Eagle by your own definition you just named the 62 Dodge Dart 413 Max wedge! Slightly heavier than the 64 Tempest but a power to weight ratio NEVER matched or exceeded by any Pontiac sold to the public.

BUT in fairness to back you up:
I was recently reading a September or October 1968 Super Stock magazine article introducing the new 1969 models and they DID refer to the 64 GTO as "the original super car"

[Wareagle]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

War Eagle by your own definition you just named the 62 Dodge Dart 413 Max wedge! Slightly heavier than the 64 Tempest but a power to weight ratio NEVER matched or exceeded by any Pontiac sold to the public.

BUT in fairness to back you up:
I was recently reading a September or October 1968 Super Stock magazine article introducing the new 1969 models and they DID refer to the 64 GTO as "the original super car"

Cool--over the years I've read many magazines--most of them referred to the 64 GTO as the first Musclecar.

[Greg Reid]

The big difference with the Dodge Dart's claim is that it wasn't mass produced in that configuration. I think it was a special order and wasn't even covered by a factory warranty IF I recall correctly. I've even seen one restored with the reproduction window sticker that stated the voided warranty information.
If you look at al the cars that are universally accepted as 'muscle cars', they were all mass produced and marketed the same way regardless of manufacturer. I'm talking:
Road Runner, GTX, Superbee, Coronet R/T, Charger R/T, GTO, SS Chevelle, GS, 442, Torino GT, Cyclone GT...I'm sure I missed a couple but they were all similar sized, similarly marketed, similarly equipped. Not fullsized cars and not 'Pony' cars.

Doesn't mean other cars are not high performance cars...but the term "muscle car" fits those above and only those in my concept of the term.

[Matt Meaney]

first, smirst. can you say BEST!?! or at least how about most recognizable? i can't count how many times i've heard people make nice comments about brand x cars, just to follow up with "what is it?" or call it somthing it's not. you'll be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't recognize a gto, and they always have a story to go with it. "I, or, my father, uncle, neighbor, etc. had one and man was that car fast!" if you can find one, park a 55 300 some where and see how many people can tell you what it is, then distinguish it as a muscle car. HA!

[Jack Gifford]

Originally Posted by Greg Reid

If Chrysler considered the 300 a muscle car, then why on earth didn't they place it into competition with the SS Chevelle, GTO, GS, 442...

Umm... maybe because those cars were still about ten years in the future???

[Jack Gifford]

Originally Posted by triathlonx13

Who made / created the first v8?...

Some research would be required for a good answer, since the dawning 20th century brought such rapid development of the internal combustion engine- many examples disappeared quickly. Certainly one of the earliest (and most successful) V8s was Glen Curtiss's engine, built later in fairly large quantity for his airplanes. I believe it was 1908 when he set a speed record (120+ MPH?) on a motorcycle with one of his V8 engines. [Try that on raggedy-ass cotton-cord tires, you real men!]

Edit: After looking it up- it was 1907 when Curtiss set the record at 136 MPH- on a very rickety-looking machine!

[triathlonx13]

Originally Posted by Wareagle

The first Muscle car--Big engine -light body - 64 GTO nuff said.

...and PMD marketed it as such. Those old fat slow early MOPAR "s"-boxes never had that in mind when they produced and marketed them. Plus their suspensions where comlete crap.... Well actually Mopar never did have good suspension... and Ford... ok this is another topic! haha

[triathlonx13]

Originally Posted by dblsprt68

I think they are thinking the 300 series was the first muscle car. It had power, but it was a land barge.

Muscle cars as we call it today are defined by years made... somewheres around 1964 - 1972. But more importantly it's mid-sized car (as interpretated in the era built) with a front and rear seat, two door, V8 or large engine, good power to weight ratio, aggressive looks. Buy definition the 2004-2007 GTOs are muscle cars... the four door challenger/charger thing is not....

[triathlonx13]

Originally Posted by Stuart

If they want to split hairs, .

MOPAR is lying again... And being greedy too! They had their share of good stuff and did well in history - That commercial would make someone think that they did everything first and was the best at everything... well that's the far from reality.

They made a couple super low production cars that did very well. The company as a whole back in the hay day of Muscle cars produced a 1/3 of what GM did... because the company was broke and people like the GM products better.

[60man]

Someone mentioned Hudson. If memory serves me correct they introduced the Hudson"Jet" in '53 or '54. It was a smaller intermediate car and could be had with a police option...a 300+ C.I. 6 banger with Twin-H power(dual carbs),high comp. head and a few other enhancements..Basically the same motor that tore the NASCAR series up for years in the full sized Hudson's prior to to the big V-8's..It (JET) was originally made for a down sized econo car...
One feature that was expressed was by being a narrow car it could slip through city traffic.
My Dad loved his Hudsons...had a 52 with Twin-H power....I could tear up the Ford & Merc boys with it !! He always wondered why the cops would follow him around
One other thing.....someplace I have a mag. article that claims Pontiac was the first stock car to hit 200MPH on a "closed circuit" race track !!! GUess I'll do some digging for my own sake...
Still......64 GTO is my first choice for first Muscle Car...

[Greg Reid]

Originally Posted by pontiac jack

Umm... maybe because those cars were still about ten years in the future???

You seem to have completely missed my point Jack.
THEY are the ones claiming it was the first muscle car. If they had honestly felt that all those other cars that I just mentioned were the same thing that they had already done a decade before with the 300, you can count on it that they would have pointed that out THEN... in the 1960s....not 40 years later in 2007.
They are very aware that the 300 and those other cars are not comparable in the least.
It's just a convenient revision of history and probably good marketing right now to claim to be first with the muscle car just like Ford is now calling their "Pony car" the only remaining "muscle car" in their recent ads.

By the way, I owned a '68 Chrysler 300 and believe me, it was designed to be on the same level as Cadillac and Lincoln, not the LeMans and Chevelle.

[BruceWilkie]

Greg I know personally 2 people that bought max wedge cars new from the dealer( I was a kid then but remember the cars well). They had no special connections they just knew what to order. Chryslers biggest mistake was not marketing it! Also the Max wedge while rare didnt always go in a stripped down car. In 1969 my brother bought a 64 Dodge Polara from a used car lot. Nice bucket seat interior radio etc. Underhood 426 stage III complete with iron headers cross ram and factory aircleaners. My brother got it home pulled the engine (for his RoadRunner) and called the junkyard. YUP he still kicks himself. Even the headers went to the junkyard. I never understood why he didnt put his 383 in there and sell the car, he claimed he didnt want to waste the time back then. He married shortly there after and the RoadRunner went bye and he was drivin a Falcon! Happened to a lot of guys back then. His most missed car was his 65 GTO followed by the 67GTO convert. He got beat up by the RoadRunner that replaced the 67 and bought it from the guy. Pontiac played the right cards in 64 with the GTO the car was just what the young crowd wanted. Timing and execution perfect. Super Car.

[Greg Reid]

I didn't mean to say that you couldn't order a Max Wedge Dart...Only, as you pointed out, you had to know what to order and the dealer made certain exceptions with the car in that it was something of a factory race car.
With the GTO, you could go to any Pontiac dealer and see maybe 15 or 20 GTOs on the lot, pick up the brochure, see the commercials every night during prime time, etc. It was a factory, mass produced performance car, marketed as such.
All that is part of the muscle car phenomenom, in my eyes anyway and all the cars I mentioned in the earlier post, including Mopar and Ford, fit that definition as far as I know.

[Wareagle]

Originally Posted by 60man

Someone mentioned Hudson. If memory serves me correct they introduced the Hudson"Jet" in '53 or '54. It was a smaller intermediate car and could be had with a police option...a 300+ C.I. 6 banger with Twin-H power(dual carbs),high comp. head and a few other enhancements..Basically the same motor that tore the NASCAR series up for years in the full sized Hudson's prior to to the big V-8's..It (JET) was originally made for a down sized econo car...
One feature that was expressed was by being a narrow car it could slip through city traffic.
My Dad loved his Hudsons...had a 52 with Twin-H power....I could tear up the Ford & Merc boys with it !! He always wondered why the cops would follow him around
One other thing.....someplace I have a mag. article that claims Pontiac was the first stock car to hit 200MPH on a "closed circuit" race track !!! GUess I'll do some digging for my own sake...
Still......64 GTO is my first choice for first Muscle Car...

I Could be wrong but I think that was Fireball Roberts that hit 200 mph In his 421 SD Cat .

[GT182]

Originally Posted by Wareagle

Cool--over the years I've read many magazines--most of them referred to the 64 GTO as the first Musclecar.

Yep, I agree. Alll those Road and Track magazines I had from the mid to late 60s said the same..... 64 GTO was the 1st muscle car. Too bad they got thrown out. But I guess most of us did stupid stuff like that, or Mom did it for us when we weren't around. Right now I have over 10 years worth of Mustang Monthly magazines my wife wanted me to throw out. Nuthin doin, just in case I lose my mind and get a 67 or 68 Mustang. LOL

[thunderguns71]

Well, no one read the latest Mopar Enthusiast, because they pretty much rag on every make in their "Confessions Of A Mopar Junkie" section lol. I got the feeling that they never made a slow car while reading it. One guy even states no GTO ever ran with a 413. Now that's not nice. Why can't they just accept the GTO is the 1st Musclce Car and be done with it. Oh btw, I only bought it because I wanted to see what the 25 fastest Mopars were, honestly.

[60man]

Originally Posted by Wareagle

I Could be wrong but I think that was Fireball Roberts that hit 200 mph In his 421 SD Cat .

Not sure of year.Might have been prior to the 421's....but I think it was Fireball driving one of Smokey's cars....
They wern't called "The Demon's of Daytona" for nothing !!!

[GT182]

That story of the remake of Fireball Robert's car he won with in 62 at the Daytona 500 was great. Page 58 of the Nov issue of P Pontiac. I would love to have a SD 421 like that. More Grrrrr for the Prrrrrrr. LOL

[67GTONUT]

March 24, 1970: During qualifying, Buddy Baker becomes the first RECORDED driver in NASCAR history to break the 200 mph barrier by turning a lap of 200.447 mph (322.588 km/h).

He was drving the famed winged Superbird

[BR57]

It's like splitting hairs I know, but he drove for Dodge, it was a Hemi Powered Dodge Daytona.

http://www.cottonowens.com/press.html

Fireball might have, and probably did hit 200 mph down a straight but not for an entire lap, that's what Baker's record was.