[Lloyd-TX]

Originally Posted by 70ra455

That may be for '71's but I was under the impression that the Convertible frame for the 1970 GTO 400 was different that the Convertible frame for the 1970 GTO 455? I know the part numbers and Vin's should be there but wasn't there more to it than just that the engine mount frame brackets were pre-installed?

Phil, I could be wrong, but my understanding is the PN's and mount frame brackets are the only differences.

Mike (held for) Ransom needs to chime in here. He knows for sure!

[Held for Ransom]

I've been told that the front cross frame (cradle) is different between the HT 400/455 frames. So, I would think the convert. frames would be different too.

[dayton maaco]

I did not find a vin on the tranny case but I did find what I believe to be the muncie #POM04B and on the drivers side is a tag attached to one of the side cover screws I would have to remove this tag to read it should I ?

[70ra455]

That's a December 1969 M-21 Tranny. The vin# should be on the same pad - smaller and harder to read letters and may even be more towards the top of the tranny and facing the floorboards.

That date would match well with the January '70 block and heads. The only part that seems out of wack is that EXTREMELY EARLY carburator from May 1969.

[dayton maaco]

Would this tranny be for a 400 or a 455 engine ?

[70ra455]

Standard when ordering a 4spd 455. I do not think it was available in 1970 on the non-455's but I'm not certain.

[dayton maaco]

My vehicle gets stranger from here,the entire interior floor pans and cowl panel where painted over with red primer like it was going to be set outside with no interior in it.The shifter hole in the floor looks like it was cut out with a torch and 2 clean access holes where cut in the side of the cowl panel.My next question would be what does Gm do with pilot cars ? are they posabley assembled disassembled and rebuilt.

[dayton maaco]

I looked at my tansmission again there is no vin number of any kind.

[70ra455]

You are looking for something that doesn't exist and no matter how many questions you ask you are never going to be able to 'prove' that your car is some pilot car that GM then re-released with a 455. Especially since there is the previously mentioned evidence to the contrary (the date coded engine/tranny that is WAY BEFORE the re-release date of your car.)

Now you have more evidence ... you have your torched shifter hole (exactly the way a dealer or owner would have done it)

What does GM do with Pilot cars? There is no one perfect answer but many times they sold them to dealers.

If your name was Tony from Custom Classics you would have been bombarded with taunts by now. lol lol

Seriously though, you've got an AWESOME CAR that ANYONE here would love to own and drive when its done. It sounds like you're looking to sell it at some time in the future and trying to increase it's worth by pushing the GM installed 455 hope (or in other words car #159.)

No matter how many people on this board support you and tell you it's possible ... not one person here would pay additional $$$ because of it. They would purchase a RARE 4spd GTO Convertible (about 1,000 made) that has an original WA block, 64 heads, and M-21 Tranny all matching dates. That alone is worth (if all rebuilt) about $5,000 - $6,000 on the open market ... if rebuilt. Especially with the blank vin's. Someone would either need the date correct equipment or they would go to one of the many places that we all know will re-stamp everything.

Good luck with your car but I believe that I've helped you and shed more truth on this situation than you're willing to accept at this point.

IT REALLY IS A GREAT CAR!

[dayton maaco]

I would like to say to 70ra455 I truley appreciate youre help to this point.Im not looking to sell my car of 25 years,only to try and prove what I believe is a Dearborn Pontiac installed drivetrain.Gm owned this pilot factory company car until oct of 1970, the drivetrain is dated Jan 1970,it is possible.Some people dont believe things can happen unless its in black and white, and theres no changing that mind set.Ill soon start a new thread PILOT CARS.

[70ra455]

Good luck with your thread. It's not about not being able to believe possibilities - but please be honest ... the only reason you're that concerned is to either:

1- have the car seem like it's more special as you own it
2- have the car seem like it's more special in case you sell it

There is no other reason otherwise you would have hunted this information down years and even decades ago. My mind set is the same as everyone elses here - not one person would pay extra for what may have been but only for documentable and/or proveable facts. I'm sorry that bothers you.

Good luck with the restoration of your great car and I'm certain that we would all love to see some pictures (of both PHS' too!)

[JLHarper]

Hey Phil,

Now "please be honest"...if you had any nagging little question that your motor, trans, carb, gas cap wasnt original, you would be the first one burning up the PY board asking questions..

Dont bust on the guys dream.

He new and just wants to own an original musclecar.

[70ra455]

Nope ... not true. I would ask the questions and then after two seperate threads with multiple people telling me it's not original then I would accept the fact as the fact ... plain and simple. He's refusing to accept the fact and you've got to believe he's trying to add value to a car he's going to sell. He's had the car for 25 years and now he's asking these questions?

And Ron, be honest ... how would this board be treating this contention of a re-released engine if we saw the claims made in an add on ebay? You'd be screaming at the top of your lungs! lol

He does own an original musclecar.

Now for you "please be honest." You've read the thread and maybe the first thread ... do you believe it was re-released from Pontiac with the 455? And, would you pay for the car as car #159 made with a 4spd? lol

OK OK ... in the spirit of making nice I will refrain from saying anymore about this thread or even the next one he will eventually start. I'm done.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Dean, I followed the first thread posted by 64catdroptop, but just now saw this one.

Some pretty sharp knives have contributed in both threads, but there are more sharp knives in the drawer - still. If you want more definitive information you are going to HAVE TO POST THE 2 PHS's. Feel free to cover any portion with tape you wish to conceal before you scan the documents.

PHS #1 will disclose what department of PMD the Car went to/billed to. A test, pilot, or experimental would be designated to engineering 99.9 of 100 times. That info would be step #1 if you want facts, versus more theories.

It was mentioned in other thread, some items were removed/deleted/upgraded/downgraded (hubcaps, wood shift knob, steering wheel) from the Car before it was sold/delivered to the subsequent dealership. I presume PHS #2 reflects that info, lest it would not have been mentioned. If #2 reflects different option info from #1, then it would be safe to conclude the 455HO option would reflect on #2 as well. Had it been installed by PMD during their tenure with vehicle.

The "pilot" wire wrap could have been of the final test batch, and instituted into production allotment when batch was known to be satisfactory.

Personally at this point, I believe you have a very early (first or third) production - executive ordered vehicle - which is a neat factor.

1) At some point a following subsequent owner later secured a wrecked or bargain priced 455 4spd GTO and swapped complete drivetrain. Of which, VIN may have been unstamped from factory, or removed by that ingenious owner. Not everyone was in the dark to basic Pontiac knowledge back before 1982.

2) Executive damaged the complete drivetrain (?) and PMD swapped it out. Or he asked/greased some palms for the upgrade. If it was done at PMD - it was probably under the table/backdoor.

Why would PMD need a "test/pilot 455 conversion convertible" in or after January 1970 - the casting date of your block - 6 months into 1970 production ? Test/Pilots were usually built months and even a year or more before production.

Originally Posted by dayton maaco

... the entire interior floor pans and cowl panel where painted over with red primer... shifter hole in the floor looks like it was cut out with a torch ...

Hands other than PMD factory workers have touched your vehicle. Factory manual tranny vehicle would not require additional "trimming" to mount up a 455 4spd combo with a factory shifter. An aftermarket shifter must have been instituted at some point in time.

I've never had an Ohio title. In North Carolina and most other states, there is a title number (not to be confused with VIN). Everytime the vehicle changed ownership in NC, the suffix increased. Original title number of 123456 would go to 123456A with second owner. 123456D would indicate the 5th owner. If the original Oct.70 selling dealer was in Ohio, maybe you can tell how many have owned it.

[69taconv]

I have both copies of P.H.S. first one states sold to Pont Motor Division Fact CC Car w/a ship date of 9/4/69,while 2nd one sold to Hittle pont greenville 10-16-70.The only note on 2nd
PHS invoice is a handwrote note dated 12/8/70 by CMS-220456 possibly the person
entered note & dept # or employee #stating car was missing 3 options on delivery
-472 -614 -464 per 556 form.Clearly this was wrote in response to claim factory shortages when del to dealer.Don Hittle/owner of Hittle Pontiac was a stand up guy and would pay for all of his cars delivered in cash or check form,and was known for being thrifty.He would file a claim if it was 1.00 or a hundred ,no matter ,it was his and alot of others in the business that by not notifying factory of errors,would be be accepting of .
If dean wants you all to see copies,I'm sure he'll post them in time.

[dayton maaco]

Thanks for youre last replys,it was nice to see someone use the butter knife instead of the steak knife.Once I figure out how to post the two phs documents I will.The shifter you dont understand,the car is and always was a 4spd car the shifter hole has not been moved or inlarged just cut roughly the first time- strange.

[north]

All 4 speed cars had the hole hand cut with a zip gun, depending on the guy they could be neat or messy but never clean cut like a punch or die. You often see cars with a pigtail leftover from where he finished the cut.

[455RM]

I've never heard of Hiddle or Hittle Pontiac? Do you have a address of where they were? n/m

I think the biggest Pontiac dealer in Dayton was Rodgers.

Greenville...Would be why I never heard of it...lol I think it's Troutwine now?

[dayton maaco]

Hittle Pontiac is still around and owned by the same family,its about 40 minutes northwest of Dayton.The history of ownership I know,Gm owned the car for 13 months Hittle pontiac was the dealership that took delivery from Gm,Who the car was sold to from this point I dont know until I bought the car in 1982 in Dayton Ohio,that owner told me a lady in dayton owned the car before him for how long I dont know.From this info the car hasnt moved from dayton.

[70ra455]

Just thought I'd post this link to demonstrate how hard it is to prove "pilot" car status or "test" car or whatever other special designation we want to have. Even with some documentation this owner is having trouble even getting a bid. If this was a proveable first W-30 car it would probably be a $75,000 - $100,000 car fully restored and the owner can't even get a bid - and he has some documentation and yet the story remains foggy.

check it out ...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1968-...QQcmdZViewItem