[Mr. P-Body]

German technological superiority is rarely challenged. A very good comparison I've studied would be the German technology in 1944 versus American VOLUME, not unlike the USSR's approach to the "Cold War". "Win by attrition" was the philosophy. For every Tiger tank "killed" 20 Shermans were. But... There were 30 Shermans "in the field" for every Tiger, so if "we" could stand the "losses", we WOULD eventually win. And that's exactly how it "played out".

First P-51s were flown in 1938. First combat units arrived in England in 1940. Definitely "1930s" developed, but as with current fighter aircraft, they were "leading edge" and therefore "next generation" stuff. So, the argument could be made either way. Many aircraft experts consider Mustang the most advanced propeller-driven fighter of all time. Others "like" the Bearcat. Still others like the FW-190. All three were WAY PAST anything else. Too bad more FWs weren't "salvaged". They could have been great pilon racers, too! LOVE the sound of those radial engines! And if one looks closely at the cowl of the FW, the aerodynamics are startling. No other radial-equipped plane was quite so "clean", including Bearcat. Bearcat, like F-4 "Phantom II", was an exercise in strapping enough power to an airframe to make it MORE than "competitive". It never saw combat, though, as it arrived at the end of the war.

In March of 1945, according to Admiral Doenitz (sp?) in his book "The German Navy in WWII", said they successfully test-launched a V-2 from a submarine. The implications of THAT are far more "reaching" than a long-range bomber. Had they attacked New York or Washington D.C. from right off the coast, the entire outcome could also be in question, not unlike the German failure to invade and "take" England when they had the chance. England simply became an "unsinkable" aircraft carrier, which in the long run, was the undoing of the German "war machine". Of course, the actual military value of the V-2 was limited, but the phsychological aspect of American cities blowing up would have been devastating to the "untouchable" attitude of the American public. Another few months and V-3 might have been on subs, shooting at all the American coastal cities. V-3 is another than never saw combat. It was larger and FAR more "accurate" than V-2. NASA used them in the early days for testing.

I was a WWII "buff", too!

Jim

[gtomike1967]

Quick question for you guys.
If Germany developed (and sort of flew) a stealth type plane in 1944? Then why did it take another 35 years for the US to start developing our own?
Didnt we think think it was something we might want to develope?
Just curious....

[hurryinhoosier62]

Jim,

I hate to disagree but the first N.A.73(what became the P-51) didn't fly until 26 Oct 1940. Service deliveries to the RAF(original customer) began in October,1941. AAF
first flight was the A-36A variant in September,1942(I own a preliminary flight manual for this aircraft). The first Merlin conversion flew on 13 October 1942. The first P-51Bs
reached England for AAF service in the winter of 1943.
Cobrabill, care to place a bet on that? You're HOW old? One of the first books I read
on WWII was Albert Speer's "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" That was in 1971(age8)
How many of YOUR uncles served in WWII (4 of mine)? How many of YOUR friends
flew combat missions in WWII (3 of mine)? How MANY P-51s and P-47s have you
crewed(1 of each for me)? NEVER ASSUME ANYTHING!!! Technologically speaking, the
P-51 is no different than the ME 109, the Spitfire or the FW190.
They ALL incorporate fabric-covered control surfaces, engines originally developed in
the EARLY 1930's and monocoque construction pioneered by Jack Northorp while working
for Lockheed in the EARLY 1930's. Son, you're dealing with not ONLY an aircraft mechanic but an amateur avaition historian.
GTO Mike, after the debacle of the YB-49, the USAF abandoned ALL flying wing research
until the 1960's with the "lifting" body research aircraft. In 1981, Jack Northorp, designer
and developer of the XB-35 and the YB-49, was allowed to see the preliminary design
work for what became the B-2 Spirit. "This is why God has allowed me to live so long!"
Northorp is reported to have exclaimed after seeing that his "flying" wing design had
been incorporated.

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

Jim,

I hate to disagree but the first N.A.73(what became the P-51) didn't fly until 26 Oct 1940. Service deliveries to the RAF(original customer) began in October,1941. AAF
first flight was the A-36A variant in September,1942(I own a preliminary flight manual for this aircraft). The first Merlin conversion flew on 13 October 1942. The first P-51Bs
reached England for AAF service in the winter of 1943.
Cobrabill, care to place a bet on that? You're HOW old? 1)One of the first books I read
on WWII was Albert Speer's "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" That was in 1971(age8)
How many of YOUR uncles served in WWII (4 of mine)? How many of YOUR friends
flew combat missions in WWII (3 of mine)? How MANY P-51s and P-47s have you
crewed(1 of each for me)? NEVER ASSUME ANYTHING!!!

How many relatives of yours were ACTUALLY members of the Third Reich?

How many hours do you have in the following:

B-17G(include "right seat time")
B-24
B-25
Here's a clue: www.collingsfoundation.org

And i have been up in a Mustang,Crewed a Mark X Spit and the only airworthy Hurricane in the country.
My x GF father flew out of Chelveston England.305BG,365th BS.

You do have your facts straight on the Mustang.

[Rack776]

Anyone have a copy of MS Combat Flight Simulator 3?
Its been awhile since I used it but I think that 229 is in the program to
use & fly.

Germans were smarter, we just out produced them
and had more natural resources.
Plus they were instantly "surrounded" as soon as
they picked on Russia, Bad move for them, Lucky for us.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Bill,

So you worked for Kermit Weeks? Wasn't it a LONG commute to Florida? I am very
familiar with the Collins Foundation. I've donated money and my former employer,
Stevens Aviation, did avionics work for the Foundation. As far as the Third Reich,NONE!!
Uncle Dave was captured at Bastogne, Uncle Maurice was a writer for "Stars and Stripes" who actually knew Bill Mauldin, Uncle "Buster" was in the Pacific and "reuped"
during Korea and Uncle Jody was Corp of Engineers.So, you're "signed off" by the
FAA to fly the -17G, -24 and the -25? Steve Hinton,Jr. are you? Yes, I have met Yeager. He's one fun guy!!

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

Bill,

So you worked for Kermit Weeks? Wasn't it a LONG commute to Florida? I am very
familiar with the Collins Foundation. I've donated money and my former employer,
Stevens Aviation, did avionics work for the Foundation. As far as the Third Reich,NONE!!
Uncle Dave was captured at Bastogne, Uncle Maurice was a writer for "Stars and Stripes" who actually knew Bill Mauldin, Uncle "Buster" was in the Pacific and "reuped"
during Korea and Uncle Jody was Corp of Engineers.So, you're "signed off" by the
FAA to fly the -17G, -24 and the -25? Steve Hinton,Jr. are you? Yes, I have met Yeager. He's one fun guy!!

At the time(15+ years ago),"being rated" was not a requirement for getting some right seat time(as long as the left seat was occupied & qualified(duh).I wish i was"type rated".But the FAA & Homeland security put an end to that.This was B-17G only.Been up a couple three times in the 24 & 25.I'll take the 909 any day.

Kermit Weeks has nothing to do with the Collings Foundation.

To all,Homeland security is trying to put an end to ALL Warbird flights.Please visit the Collings Foundation website to see what you can do to help.

[MikeNoun]

When Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, it brought America into both theaters of war. Many German generals stated privately that even at that time (Dec 1941), they knew Germany was doomed. They were well aware of the massive production capability of the U.S.

German aircraft factories were getting pounded by Allied bombers after 1943. What puzzled the Allies was that even with round the clock bombing in 1944, German aircraft production increased. What the Allies didn't know was that the German method of production was involve hundreds of sub-contractors, from small tool & die businesses to furniture makers, they all made parts and pre-assembled them. So if an aircraft factory was bombed, they could easily shift production (assemby actually) to another location. This method of sub-contractors and pre-assembly was later used on the B-17 and B-29, and of course in the production of American cars after the war. It greatly sped up the production process, and one bomb wouldn't bring the assembly line to a halt.

The FW190A was my favorite piston engined aircraft of the war. Just a beautiful design, and very advanced. I also liked the later D series with the extended snout.

The fastest piston engined aircraft of the war was the Dornier Do335, that odd twin engined pusher/puller setup with the tricycle undercarriage, although it never saw combat. Late model P-47N's were the fastest U.S. aircraft.

If you get a chance, watch the old "Wings Of The Luftwaffe" series. The episode on the Me262 was fantastic. One of my favorite things on the Me262 was the innovative flaps that slipped down automatically (on roller bearings) when the plane fell below 170 mph, and that made it stable for landing. Without those automatic flaps, the landing speed would have been far too great to allow a landing on a standard airfield.

Also, check out the little "dash" that appears in each of the two engine's nosecones. For years I wondered what those were. They are pull handles to manually start the jet engine, just like a pull start on a lawnmower.

It's great there are other WWII aircraft nuts on this site! We went through the Dayton Air Force Museum after the POCO/GTOAA show, and spent all day there.

[Cobrabill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI-z64G3tvU


The P-47J was the first piston powered Aircraft to exceed 500 MPH in level flight

[Mr. P-Body]

hurry,

If you intend to banter with Bill, I hope you brought a lunch... My statements are best from memory of a fairly recent "History Channel" ditty on the Mustang. I COULD have the dates mixed up, but I know they were NOT a major part of The Battle of Britain. Spitfire gets most of the "glory", but Hurricane was the "workhorse". Merlin changed the whole character of the plane. One of my dad's WWII buddies was a P-51 pilot. I recall some of his stories. He too, had the utmost respect for the FW.

Another, a member of The Eagle Squadron, drafted into the US military, was flying the P-51B. They took delivery of the "D" and went up for a test flight. While they were up, an alarm came down about some German twin-engined bombers headed "in". They were armed, so they got the call. He was in the rear flight, and saw the circus unfold. The front flight all poured the throttle at the same time. They hadn't put the new engine through any "paces" yet, so were not ready for the rush of torque. He said it was one of the funniest things he ever saw, four Mustangs doing involuntary rolls "in unison". They learned immediately, apply the throttle SLOWLY... (:-

Mike,

The only part of the Air Force Museum at Wright-Pat that I felt "lacking" was planes from elsewhere. They have at least one of each USAAC or USAF plane ever used, but no Navy or foriegn stuff. If you're ever in Tucson, the Pima Air Museum is incredible! They have LOTS of "other" stuff, as well as the air force planes. The even have a NEW Norden on display. Pop was a bombsight tech on B-17s and B-24s out of Watton, England. The only stories HE told were about women and drinking. When "pressed" about the war, he, like most combat vets, didn't really wanna talk about it. Mom told me about a couple incidents he was involved in, where people were killed. He and I were watching the History Channel one afternoon, about the air war. I said "I sure am in awe of what you guys had to do!" His response? "Me too..." It was like a different life. How he could put it all behind him is beyond me!


Tom Hanks said it best about our parents. "The greatest generation ever. They did nothing less than save the world!"

One story about the US entry into the war. On december 11, 1941, Hitler declared war on the US. Half of his general staff quit right then and there. When he asked them "Why?" One of them said "You've never been there. I have. You can't beat those people." Not unlike Yamamoto's famous "quote". Foreign leaders that had never visited the US, had no idea, the sheer size and breadth of our country, and the resolve instilled in "the people". Whether or not this is a real incident, I can't say. Mein frau (Rosie is a "[green] card carrying" German) says she was told that in elementary school.

All this talk about "the jug" (P-47), why were they never popular in pilon racing? Just curious, not challenging. Bearcat and Mustang seem to be completely dominant. I must have built models of "the jug" 10 or more times. Most certainly a GREAT aircraft.

Jim

[Cobrabill]

Generals in Korea wanted the JUG instead of the Mustang.
Most kills by aircraft type belongs to the Jug.
Best ground attack aircraft of the war-JUG
THe Jug could out dive any plane in the skies in WWII with the POSSIBLE exception of the 262.

A couple of years ago, the last Peruvian JUG was here at AMARC.I tried to find it-no luck.

THe "J" variant was a Jug that went to Jenny Craig.It weighed about 2000lbs less than other variants.THere's your reason.And only one or two"J'S" were made.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Jim,

We had alot of problems with new pilots in the P-51D I crewed. More than once, a
"ham-fisted" pilot nearly "ground-looped" her from opening the throttle too fast. "Honey's" engine was built by Mike Nixon @ Vintage V-12s. Nothing special...
-3 bottom end,transport banks and heads and a shaved supercharger that developed
120ins of manifold pressure. Mike said if you could get it on a dyno, the engine would
put out in excess of 3,000hp but the rod and main bearings would probably fail if you
ran the engine for more than five minutes. We also had a P-47D. That bird was a trip!!
Mr. Osborn, the owner, sold a beautiful -5 Corsair to obtain the -47 from France.
It took 5yrs for hard work to restore her. The day we started the engine for the first
time, "BigAssBird" pulled her tiedown out of the ground at half-throttle! We didn't even
reinstall the turbo. No one would overhaul it!!

[hurryinhoosier62]

Bill,

Kemit used to own the Hurricane of which you speak. Weeks is an INTERESTING fella!
I've been involved with warbirds since 1983.

[cliffhanger]

I'm reluctant to believe that the world would have been different if they (germans) would have had that 'stealth' bomber back then, if that would imply that the germans actually had 'won' the war....which would never had happen anyway. SURE, it would have brought a new angle into the war that would put the germans on a gain over the other 'forces', but it would at most 'stalled' the end of the war a bit, or it just might had ended earlier as I have no doubt there would have been an even 'harder' approach to end the war at that moment in time.....IF that would imply counter measures by use of nuclear weapons, is anybody's guess, but so is any 'theory' based on IF and IF.
Thankfully, it never happened. The east coast might have looked very different if the germans would have succeeded in stealth bombing f.e. new york or washington.......
there is no doubt in my mind however, that it actually could have 'rescued' them. It would have only brought bigger counter measures against them....

As far as 'why' it took 35 years since then for the US to bring up a stealth bomber.....
...who said the US did not have stealth technology BEFORE the gulf war? Either the B2 or the Nighthawk were 'created' or in 'working capacity' long before they were 'discovered' by media or 'presented' to the world. There is more then just the new 'joint strike fighters' behind the scenes.....we all know that, deep in our mind.

The US could flatten out all excistence of IRAQ in a matter of days. But having that power, does not mean it is actually put to use....

It's like having a big-block, big-muscle, muscle car. You might have ALL the power in the world under that hood....but how many times have you EVER used ALL of its potential? It's just nice to have it.

BTW there are far more N*zi-tools out there that would blow our minds that we'll never learn of, or possibly at some point in time.....you can call it impressive, but concidering it's either research & develop or DIE, AND all income was invested in this, I can't say its surprising that the Na*i's had such 'impressive' or 'advanced' 'weapons of war'.
Imagine the kind of technology and 'inventions' would be made if the same effort & money could be put in research & development in the present....weapons of war or not.....

but thats just my opinion....

[455HOGT37]

Originally Posted by gtomike1967

Quick question for you guys.
If Germany developed (and sort of flew) a stealth type plane in 1944? Then why did it take another 35 years for the US to start developing our own?
Didnt we think think it was something we might want to develope?
Just curious....

"Stealth" as applied to this article is a pretty broad term; just like "speed". For instance, at one time a "fast" factory street car would run 16's, but now that is pretty tame. Sure, there may have been "stealth" attributes to this German wing, but it hardly compares to the performance of even the F-117, which itself is crude and outdated compared to current aircraft. Given all the possible technologies available to exploit to gain a combat advantage- speed, performance, range and weapons load were all ahead of stealth in the list of desired traits. Why, because developing and maintaining effective stealth in an ever evolving threat environment is hard, and it is expensive. We're into stealth these days because we've run out of the "easy" things to do to avoid a threat.

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

Bill,

Kemit used to own the Hurricane of which you speak. Weeks is an INTERESTING fella!
I've been involved with warbirds since 1983.

The 'Cane was on it's way to Chino(i think)with the Mark X.They had a fuel stop at Avra valley airport.They twisted my arm to assist.I didn't relaize who owned it untill you told me.Interesting is a mild term.

I almost forgot one lady.I flew on her last flight in the states.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVVQW...om=PL&index=22

[Mark C.]

Mike, I watched the series and the repeats whenever possible.

"Also, check out the little "dash" that appears in each of the two engine's nosecones. For years I wondered what those were. They are pull handles to manually start the jet engine, just like a pull start on a lawnmower."

The little rings started "starter motors" then the jet engines were started from them.

Bill,

I'm with you, give me 909 anyday. I flew on her from Greeneville, SC to Cahrlotte, NC. I was privledged to fly with Robert "Dusty" Hoffman, the pilot who flew her in the ET back in 45. When they gave him the yoke, I could see him lovingly caressing it, like you would your best girl (get your minds out of the gutter guys). In the sense he was very gentle with her.

He in the back row third one fron the left.

[67blackcherry]

Originally Posted by Mr. P-Body

Mike,

The only part of the Air Force Museum at Wright-Pat that I felt "lacking" was planes from elsewhere. They have at least one of each USAAC or USAF plane ever used, but no Navy or foriegn stuff. If you're ever in Tucson, the Pima Air Museum is incredible! They have LOTS of "other" stuff, as well as the air force planes.

Jim

Uh, perhaps because it's an AIR FORCE Museum?
Did ANYONE get a picture of the XB-70 at Wright Patterson Field? Please???

Originally Posted by Cobrabill

The 'Cane was on it's way to Chino(i think)with the Mark X.They had a fuel stop at Avra valley airport.They twisted my arm to assist.I didn't relaize who owned it untill you told me.Interesting is a mild term.

I almost forgot one lady.I flew on her last flight in the states.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVVQW...om=PL&index=22

There's a Hurricane out at Chino? My business partner is a volunteer out there (works on/drives the Sherman & Stuart tanks, not the planes) and he's never mentioned a Hurricane.

[MikeNoun]

I remember standing under the Valkyrie back in the early 1970's, when it was parked outside at the Wright Air Force Museum. Have pictures somewhere, even some old Super 8mm film...

For those that haven't been the Dayton Museum, it's by far the largest air museum in the country, and VERY well done, from dioramas to huge informational displays. They recently added a 5th building to house more aircraft. Their restorations are top notch, and everything is very well presented. Best part is it's free admission, free parking. You can spend all day there. Hundreds of aircraft to see. Their P-47 and P-38 they have are spectactular. The "jug" is just flat out cool, and I prefer them to P-51's. They could take an enormous amount of punishment, were very powerful, and were as roomy as a Cadillac. I always thought of the Mustang as a thoroughbred horse, the Thunderbolt is a bull.

Apologies to you Navy boys, but this IS an AIR FORCE MUSEUM! They have a great Luftwaffe display, and a great array of Cold War aircraft, a great WWI area, and of course the current warbirds, like the B-1, B-2, F117, B-52, etc. They even have an F-105 Thunderchief from the Wild Weasels...

Some more pics! (L to R) :

The Jumo004 engine from the Me262, they have a full engine displayed as a cutaway.
The German R4 air-to-air rocket
The coolest engine of the war : the R-2800
The huge cannon that was tested in the nose of an Me262. This thing was so wicked looking, Goering (at Nuremburg) denied having any part of it when he was shown a photo. This thing would take out a bomber with one shell, but it was intended as a tank buster.

[MikeNoun]

The P-47J was the first piston powered Aircraft to exceed 500 MPH in level flight

Forgot to address Bill's comment. He's absolutely right. When I said "the Do335 was the fastest piston-engined aircraft of the war", I was still referring to German aircraft. The Germans sort of abandoned piston-engined advancements by the end of 1944 because they were so far advanced in their jet and rocket development.