[Rocky Rotella]

Just wanted to clarify since both my Trans Am and my Dad's use the Pypes and Waldron products in question. You can search the Exhaust forum for more detailed info on my Pypes swap, and the 70-73 Firebird forum for more detailed info on my Dad's swap to the Waldron muffler.

Both our Trans Ams used Flowmaster crossflow mufflers and we grew tired of the "aftermarket" sound. My '76 is geared more toward maximum performance, so I used the Pypes system and though I have no numbers to back it up, there seems to be a slight performance increase, especially on the top end. The noise reduction with the new system was worth every bit of it, however, and the car sounds more like it should.

The crossflow Flowmaster in my dad's T/A droned pretty badly inside at 2500 rpm and the Flowmaster just didn't have that stock-type sound a restored car should have. We contacted Joe at Waldron and explained that we were seeking for a stock-type muffler on steriods, and that's exactly what he made for us! It retains the stock routing and stock type sound but more "rumbly," and it feels better than the Flowmaster everywhere in the powerband, but I don't know if it's the "perfect" muffler for maximum performance. That's why I stepped up to the Pypes system on my car.

There are YouTube videos of both cars, so if you're interested in hearing the differences, search for rockyrotella.

[1970TA]

I heard your Dad's 72 on Youtube and that convinced me to go with that muffler and go ahead and get the Waldron system. Not really concerned for performance increase just a good fitting and sounding system andf or the money it is a real good deal I think. I considered the Gardner sysytem but I believe they are alot more expensive.

[Rocky Rotella]

Gardner systems are nice, but I don't believe their muffler sounds like the original. If you're looking for the original Firebird crossflow sound, the Waldron muffler will be as close as you can get!

[Z Code 400]

Funny,

We never had a 'droning' problem when the pipes were not in a bind, except when tailpipes were not used. When I first put my Flowmaster Crossflow on, it droned badly. When I re-aligned all the brackets and used new, factory rubber isolators, the drone stopped. I'm kind of funny...I don't care what it sounds like as long as it supports my target HP level and clears my rear suspension at full travel...Robert

[Rocky Rotella]

Originally Posted by Z Code 400

I don't care what it sounds like as long as it supports my target HP level and clears my rear suspension at full travel.

I don't know if I've ever seen you state any target HP level but if what you using suits your needs, then it sounds like you're set!

The market options shows there are people who want a muffler that sounds good, is relatively quiet during normal operation, and has minimal performance loss, however, and Flowmaster isn't the answer.

We've used Flowmaster crossflow mufflers (both stand alone mufflers and the complete system) since they were released in the late 80s. Do I like them? Yes! We've had them on First, Second, Third, and Fourth-gen Firebirds! I think they sound great at idle and full throttle, but they're loud, cackly, and resonate no matter how you try to twist it.
If you don't think they do, then you haven't been in a performance Firebird with a quiet muffler lately! And if you don't think Flowmaster doesn't affect power output, show me one person running a Flowmaster crossflow in Pure Stock or FAST series.

[Tom Hand]

Rocky, thanks for adding the clarification but more so, the first hand information. Facts never lie, and it is good to hear experience.
For your info, my buddy with the Yenko had some similar comments about performance and sound levels and what the FAST guys run.

[Z Code 400]

Originally Posted by Tom Hand

"Facts never lie, and it is good to hear experience..."

Hmmmm.....as long as that 'experience' subscribes to your point of view it would seem.

Rocky,

Currently, my target is 450 Horsepower from a 412 CID Pontiac. A very conservative target I think. My point was, and still is, you can support 450 HP with just about anything, so for me, the most important thing is differential clearance with rear disc brakes and full rear suspension travel that is somewhat limited with the Flowmaster.

There is no magic bullet muffler. When I see my neighbor's 572 CID crate motor run 11.00's on that crappy Flowmaster Crossflow, or Cliff running 11.50's on Flowmasters and compression bent, 2.50" tubing, I tend to look at the 'magic bullet mufflers' a little differently. Facts don't lie, you say? Hmmmm....

We even installed twin pressure transducers upstream of the Flowmaster Crossflow, monitored by my Snap-On Vantage, on a 450 HP SBC and never saw the system go into pressure. Would that qualify as first-hand information, Tom???? Just maybe not the information you were looking for???? Caveat Emptor.

I have also repeatedly seen resonance from non-Flowmaster systems that were traced to improper hanging of the exhaust, but the resonance will always be worse with a chambered muffler.

Basically, this is a marketing thread for the Pype's system and largely hawked by those who were, to some degree involved in it. That's cool.....I totally understand. I have been politely warned by one moderator to 'tone down' my posts and not to challenge any of Jim's theories. I completely understand the political dynamics of these things, especially after 17 years in municipal government. F.A.S.T.???? That's a marketing test-bed if there ever was one. When we were racing professionally in the 1980's, people and companies gave us all kinds of products in hopes we would slap a sticker on the fender, or push their products.

Is the Pype's crossflow a good system???? Absolutely. However, I doubt it will yield 20 horsepower and 2/10ths on the average street car. It sounds nice to be sure and I know of one guy here in Fresno who is running it on a Camaro, but didn't pick up any MPH or reduction in ET when he switched to it.

I give people my honest opinion, with no allegiance to any manufacturer, when I am asked about exhaust; The Pype's crossflow system is well-thought out, well made, will clear rear disc brakes and is quieter than a Flowmaster Crossflow, all of which are good reasons to buy it. Will it give you more HP and TQ over a similar 2.50" system, at the 450 HP level or below???? I seriously doubt it.

I'm getting just a little weary of the "You can't make power without our brand-x parts" philosophy, but I do realize it is very profitable. A lot of grass-roots enthusiasts have been sold a lot of parts that don't deliver exactly what they are claimed to yield...Robert

[Rocky Rotella]

Originally Posted by Z Code 400

There is no magic bullet muffler. When I see my neighbor's 572 CID crate motor run 11.00's on that crappy Flowmaster Crossflow, or Cliff running 11.50's on Flowmasters and compression bent, 2.50" tubing, I tend to look at the 'magic bullet mufflers' a little differently. Facts don't lie, you say? Hmmmm....

I never said Flowmaster wouldn't support any particular level, so please don't put words in my mouth. There are many guys running fast with Flowmaster, but the guys that want to run the quickest don't! Cliff picked up a considerable amount using larger diameter pipes and straight-through mufflers but he made other changes at the same time, so it's not a fare test. As for your neighbor's 572, I cant guess why he only runs 11.0 with it.

Originally Posted by Z Code 400

Basically, this is a marketing thread for the Pype's system and largely hawked by those who were, to some degree involved in it. That's cool.....I totally understand. I have been politely warned by one moderator to 'tone down' my posts and not to challenge any of Jim's theories. I completely understand the political dynamics of these things, especially after 17 years in municipal government.

It's a shame you have a such a tainted view of this thread. I went back and looked and the original posters of this thread and the others. Each asked genuine questions and they received genuine, experienced answers. Then you come on and make comments like this which do nothing more than ad to your post count. I'm not sure what your agenda is but I try not to bad mouth products, I simply suggest a better option if my expereince shows one is available.

Originally Posted by Z Code 400

F.A.S.T.???? That's a marketing test-bed if there ever was one.

What?! You obviously haven't paid enough attention to this series if you make such a comment. Those guys scratch and claw for every single horsepower and every ounce of weight reduction. All they care about is getting to the finish line first and using the best combination of parts to make that happen. They spend big bucks testing every available option to make sure what's on their cars are the best possible choices.

Originally Posted by Z Code 400

I give people my honest opinion, with no allegiance to any manufacturer, when I am asked about exhaust; The Pype's crossflow system is well-thought out, well made, will clear rear disc brakes and is quieter than a Flowmaster Crossflow, all of which are good reasons to buy it. Will it give you more HP and TQ over a similar 2.50" system, at the 450 HP level or below???? I seriously doubt it.

I'll ask a second time and hopefully this time you don't avoid the question. Please show me one car running in FAST or Pure Stock racing that runs a Flowmaster crossflow? I'll go even one further, how about any Flowmaster muffler?

[Tom Hand]

Rocky, thank you for bringing up some valid and truthful points once again.

Please allow me to answer your last question you directed to another; my pal's Yenko Camaro and others like it, clearly answer your last question. Unless they get paid to run decals, doubtful you find anything but mufflers that flow a lot of exhaust on any of the competitive FAST series cars.

[Z Code 400]

Rocky,

I guess we both seem to be missing the other's points, but my position has been and still is that I doubt any 2.50" system is better than the other at the 450 HP level...period. I have pointed out the benefits of the Pype's Crossflow quite clearly in my post, we just don't agree on the HP and TQ benefit.

If I can't make that admittedly crappy Flowmaster Crossflow go into pressure with a Snap-On Vantage and twin low-pressure transducers behind a dyno-documented 450 horsepower engine, then I doubt, on that car, switching to the Pype's Crossflow would offer any performance benefit.

Now, what I think is sad here is that if Tom Hand told you he found the same test results, you would consider this valid, but, since my last name isn't 'Hand,' then my opinion and experience, largely because it conflicts with your theories, is largely dismissed.

There is a lot of clandestine sponsoship activity in the F.A.S.T. game, just like any other racing venue. I see no reason to deny this.

Bottom line here:

Guys who want a good crossflow system, should conside the Pype's Crossflow. I wouldn't expect it to add any more power than any other mandrel-bent, 2.50" crossflow at the 450 horsepower level and below.

Since I need clearance for rear wheel discs, the Pype's Crossflow is looking better and better to me. Perhaps I will dyno my car before and after the swap and post the dyno sheets????

I would imagine you guys would dispute that too, if the results don't jive with your theories...Robert

[Rocky Rotella]

Robert, stop the pity party. I understand your sympathy game and won’t fall prey to it.

The original poster has all the factual information he needs to make an educated decision that’s best for him and his application.

[Z Code 400]

Nice attempt to sidestep the issue, Rocky. You cannot dispute what I have posted, so you have to attack the poster. That's cool. And yes, the original poster has everything he needs to make an informed decision, including at least one person who is willing to address the 'real' issues of fit and suspension clearance, as opposed to sound and 'pie-in-the-sky' claims of horsepower gains based on one vehicle as an example.

Anyways, hope you guys have a safe and Happy New Year....

[Rocky Rotella]

Side-step what issue? And dispute your claim?? You jump on this thread disputing my direct experience with a dozen or so Flowmaster mufflers on various cars.

I maintain that Pypes system is a better overall design for fit, flow, and performance than the Flowmaster crossflow system. I've HAD both systems on my car and can TESTIFY that the Pypes system charges harder on the top end. How much more of an exact expereince can I get?! You simply CLAIM the two perform equally at 450 hp. There are other PY members who've experienced similar results and have shared their comments on the forum. Care for me to point those out?

It would seem the burden of proof is on you to prove YOUR theory! Provide scientific proof (dyno or drag strip) that says the Flowmaster performs equally.

Or simply answer the question I asked twice before...

Please provide the name of ONE person competing in FAST or Pure Stock series racing running a Flowmaster muffler?

[Z Code 400]

Originally Posted by Rocky Rotella

"I maintain that Pypes system is a better overall design for fit, flow, and performance than the Flowmaster crossflow system...."

Originally Posted by Z Code 400

"The Pype's crossflow system is well-thought out, well made, will clear rear disc brakes and is quieter than a Flowmaster Crossflow, all of which are good reasons to buy it. Will it give you more HP and TQ over a similar 2.50" system, at the 450 HP level or below???? I seriously doubt it....Robert"

Originally Posted by Rocky Rotella

"It would seem the burden of proof is on you to prove YOUR theory! Provide scientific proof (dyno or drag strip) that says the Flowmaster performs equally..."

Hmmmmm.....Well, if you dismiss the read-out from my Snap-On Vantage showing zero pressure in the Flowmaster crossflow behind a 450 horse engine at 6500 rpm as scientific proof of no restriction, then I guess I can't give you what you want.

Rocky,

This could go on forever. Show me one car in the world's fastest street-car shootout that isn't running a Flowmaster??? When you have so many under-the-table sponsorship deals going on, I hardly think that 'buying what the F.A.S.T. guys are using' is any reason to blindly go out and purchase anything in hopes it MIGHT yield a similar result. There is a LOT of cheating going on in the F.A.S.T. events and, if you read the rules, you will see that they provide for a lot of cheating. Basically, you can use anything as long as it appears stock, even though mandrel-bent stainless exhaust wasn't stock, the rules actaully provide a 'loophole' for that, as long as it isn't polished.

You want to see some real, no-bull**** F.A.S.T. results???? Limit it to 100% concours restored cars. But then, there wouldn't be any opportunities for cheating, so it wouldn't be profitable. There you have it.

F - antastic

A - venue for

S - selling

T - things

I just don't like seeing guys pay hard earned money for something that is hawked on PY because someone in F.A.S.T. is using it or because it is touted to give XXX HP and TQ, only to find out that they didn't get what they expected. That's why I have focused on the quality, fit and suspension clearance more than HP and TQ gains that cannot be proven or even predicted in the average car.

I'm going to bow out of this thread before I get another PM from a moderator telling me to tone it down again. The juice, in this case, just isn't worth the squeeze.

You are all more than welcome to come out to Buttonwillow, Willow Springs or Bakersfield Raceway anytime and just hang out, enjoy a burger and talk fast cars.

[Rocky Rotella]

And one more thing, when did I ever dispute "real fitment issues" of the Flowmaster system? I never said a word about it and it's totally irrelevant to this particular topic. So why would you bring it up?

[Rocky Rotella]

Come on Robert, a single-chamber Flowmaster isn't a muffler by definition and you know it.

Share with us a real world example of a car running faster with a traditional-type Flowmaster muffler than a straight-thru design muffler.

[Z Code 400]

Originally Posted by Rocky Rotella

And one more thing, when did I ever dispute "real fitment issues" of the Flowmaster system? I never said a word about it and it's totally irrelevant to this particular topic. So why would you bring it up?

Because that's a 'real' issue, especially with rear disc brakes and I wish someone would have mentioned that to me when I was exhaust shopping. It would have saved me from doing a complete system twice.

[Z Code 400]

Originally Posted by Rocky Rotella

Come on Robert, a single-chamber Flowmaster isn't a muffler by definition and you know it.

Share with us a real world example of a car running faster with a traditional-type Flowmaster muffler than a straight-thru design muffler.

Ok,

Explain this to me....

I still have timeslips from my 440 Chrysler that was running in the high 12.00's during the Craftsman Challenge events held at Bakersfield Raceway in 1988-1989 that was running through factory cast-iron, upswept manifolds, 2.50" compression-bent tubing and Hemi mufflers, that are not at all straight through.

When we put full-length headers on it, we didn't pick up any HP or TQ, verified by chassis dyno testing at Bob's Petro Products in Porterville, California. When we uncorked the car, even jetting up and down made no effect on ET or MPH.

Would you say that the original system we had in use was adequate to the extent that the engine did not respond to less restriction or improved flow????

Or, will you simply dismiss this too????

[Z Code 400]

Rocky,

Can I just send you a pizza and a 12-pack????

I apologize for my presentation if I offended you, but I don't apologize for my opinion. I think my experience is as good as anyone's else and I don't see you openly disputing anyone else's input, so what gives????

[Rocky Rotella]

Originally Posted by 1970TA

Waldron Exhaust. Has anyone tried their crossflow exhaust system for the 70-74 Trans Am? They have a stainless steel system for $630.00 I have heard the muffler and it sounds good.

That was the original question, Robert. It had nothing to do with Flowmaster or how its system fits. The question was answered by people who have direct experience dealing with Waldron Exhaust and its products. You clearly replied you never heard of them and then added nothing constructive to this particular topic.

Stop muddying up this person's thread! They asked a genuine question and got genuine answers. If you want to argue "How Great The Flowmaster Crossflow Kit Is But Too Bad It Doesn't Fit My Car" with someone, start your own thread and argue with yourself!