[BruceWilkie]

Well it's still hot in my garage... I need to clean up the 400 to get usable pictures... busy day tomorrow but it will be a lot cooler... we are finally getting some rain...(been several weeks and past 10 days temps have been 105-112 range) Maybe tomorrow nite or Tuesday on the pictures. Possibly video if I can figure how to post it.

I think its important to show this stuff... Like Steve I found out about the 59 by accident(post mortem inspection unfortunately...damn early forged rubber rods) about 12-13 yrs ago. Lots of diggin to find out alot of this stuff. Steve has been quite helpful and I cant thank him enough for the info he has shared.

Old service manuals help... I do know the 64 manual limited max bore to +.060" and earlier manuals allowed +.090"... certainly a clue things werent as thick as prior years.

Here is the 55-60 dowel locations and the adapter for 61-63 t400. I more or less married the two drawings and made additional measurements on the 59 block to make my t400 to 59 adapter.(I've been meaning to do a single drawing with all the dimensions and my notes... I'll post it if I ever get around to it.) I used a 58 starter instead of 61-64 starter so my bolt location is different. IMO a RobbMC mini for a Toronado or Eldorado would be a better choice and uses same pilot hole and has same pinion tooth size. (easier bolt up) Also a pic of my adapter... very functional at this stage but ugly.(Pretty happens after I fit it as a mid mount plate in my car.

BTW the 55-60 block the bell mount face is recessed relative to the thrust bearing compared to later blocks... @ 1/4" just slightly less than the thickness of my adapter. At most I might need to shim my convertor 1/16" and its remotely possible I might need a change to my convertor pilot but mock up seems to be ok as is. Dialing in trans runout was tedious...setting starter to ring gear clearance is a must before welding the "pilot plate" in place. I used steel plate(3/16) so I could weld nuts where needed for the t400. (they just clear the block). Starter pad and plate area are 3/8" thick and the pinion clearance disengaged is good and when starter is engaged the pinion fully meshes without bottoming on the ring gear. Slightly worn ring gear and pinion I have clearance of .028" (near high side of spec... if both new it should fall to mid spec) The two upper holes in the trans had to be enlarged... the early block uses bigger bolts and the upper hole centerlines arent quite the same(close though)

[Half-Inch Stud]

Seems there is need to standardize "critical thickness" measurements in the following block features:

Main Web width:
Lifter Bore wall:
CYL wall sonic after a 4.21 bore occurs:

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

Seems there is need to standardize "critical thickness" measurements in the following block features:

Main Web width:
Lifter Bore wall:
CYL wall sonic after a 4.21 bore occurs:

Thickness/depth around mains and recesses are also significant.
69 400 cap bolt shoulder is @ 2.25" vs 59 at 2.625" ... the cap difference from the bearing surface to average outer perimeter between bolts is is over 1/4" difference.(Higher nickle content too) Main saddle area there is a depth difference thats similar. Recess differences under the dowel area even under the main bolt bosses are not just measurable but clearly visible.

When you start to study the 59 block up close in person you are left thinking... in 59 they probably knew they were going bigger in the future...and you have to consider... were they were undecided about bigger bore or bigger stroke with bigger mains?... they certainly had left enough room for 417-421 inches either way and still be bigger than Ford Chevy and Mopar at that point. (406 ford 409 chev and 413 mopar)

[hurryinhoosier62]

Bruce,

IF I can find a '59-early '60 block, we're going to have to talk about this adapter! I know you and Steve helped my a LOT when I was deciding to build a stroker for my
Cat.

[Steve Barcak]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

Bruce,

IF I can find a '59-early '60 block, we're going to have to talk about this adapter! I know you and Steve helped my a LOT when I was deciding to build a stroker for my
Cat.

They are out there. Just keep an eye open. some people throw them away as they think they are junk because they have the early bell pattern. Short sided types .

you usually can pick one up for almost nothing.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

Bruce,

IF I can find a '59-early '60 block, we're going to have to talk about this adapter!

I really need to do a single drawing with all my notes/procedures plus better pictures. What I provided above is all I had to start with(plus a hydramatic bell and a borrowed late model std shift bell housing helped) Look for a thread on it in the future. If I thought I could sell a few I would have probably digitized it by now so it could be done on cnc.

My 1st 59 block is in Ohio somewhere last I knew... numbers matching to a 59 Catalina I sold... Block wasnt supposed to go with it...I was in Atlanta and my wife loaded it on his trailer thinking I included it... I didnt know til after I got back. That was 2006... I think we still have the guys contact info if it hasnt changed... I had the 4 bolt main caps from it and sold them about 1 yr ago... it was originally a 420A tripower package.

A few years ago someone somewhere in NY state was selling a freshly built 59... All the work had been done before he found out he'd have to add an adapter and didnt want to bother going that route... Price was very good. Check all the Pontiac sites and Ebay and Craigslist. They are out there.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Steve,

Believe me, I've looked. Around here, most of the late 50s vehicles went to the scrap yards years ago. I'm probably going to have to post a "wanted" ad here at PY and CP.

[boodlefoof]

OK guys, I might have found a good candidate. Will probably go to take a look this weekend. Just wanted to double-check that I'm reading the date code correctly.

The owner says the date code is K036, which I read to be November 3, 1966. Sounds about right for a model year '67 car, right?

Other numbers... Engine ID code is XJ. Owner says he can read "86133" from the block casting code (probably 9786133?).

[Gator67]

Originally Posted by boodlefoof

The owner says the date code is K036, which I read to be November 3, 1966. Sounds about right for a model year '67 car, right?

Not this matters in this case. but I believe the "k" would signify Oct ("I" was skipped for 67 blocks from 66)

[boodlefoof]

Originally Posted by Gator67

Not this matters in this case. but I believe the "k" would signify Oct ("I" was skipped for 67 blocks from 66)

Thanks, Jeff. Glad to learn another interesting tidbit.

[b-man]

You, sir, have found the best 400 block available, a 1967 block. More than plenty stout for your needs.

The casting # and block code ID it as a 350 HP 400 auto trans block from a Grand Prix, originally equipped with casting # 670 high-compression heads (10.5:1 factory rating).

Way more practical than trying to adapt an early 389 block, the cost of a transmission adapter plate alone would easily exceed the purchase price of any good '67 400 block.

Leave the '59 -'60 blocks for the higher HP guys who need the ultimate in factory block strength, it's worth the trouble to come up with an adapter plate when you're building a max-effort race or super-street engine.

[GRX]

Ditto on everything b-man said. Have one of those '67 blocks myself. Good find.

[BruceWilkie]

Well I got pics and vid... have to resize and probably edit video yet. Guess I'll get it posted sometime this week. lol

Great find on the 67 block.

[Rocky 389]

As Steve said, using the 58-60 stick bellhousing and starter allows you to use a 59-60 389 and bolt up a modern style muncie, Liberty, T-5 or whatever. I've done it many times. Had very good luck using the 59-60 engines in my projects and I always use a manual transmission...usually a muncie 4 speed.

[boodlefoof]

Well guys, I'll be going to go pick up (unless there is something obviously wrong with it) the '67 400 block on Saturday morning. I'll take some pics of the main webbing and lifter bores and post them up here this weekend for reference regarding the relative beefiness of various blocks.

[boodlefoof]

I drove down and picked-up the block this morning at o'dark thirty. As promised, here are a few pictures. It doesn't look quite as stout as the SD block that was posted earlier in this topic, but is more solid than that 389 block picture.

On the casting number, the seller told me it was "86133." I presumed this was 9786133 and he just couldn't read the first two numbers. Now, I see why he couldn't read them... there is a tapped hole with a plug in it where the "97" would be. Anybody know what that is about? Is it factory?

[73 TRANSAM]

The factory tapped it and is a 1/4" pipe thread. This is where you install the oil pressure sending unit.

[b-man]

The tapped 3/8 NPT plug is factory, it was put there to facilitate the drilling of the oil gallery. This location is commonly tapped into to take the most accurate oil pressure gauge readings.

Very thick lifter bore castings, a good sign. Missing the #2 main cap? If so it looks like a set of splayed outer bolt aftermarket 4-bolt caps are in your future.

[boodlefoof]

Originally Posted by b-man

Missing the #2 main cap? If so it looks like a set of splayed outer bolt aftermarket 4-bolt caps are in your future.

No, I've got it. I had just taken it off to check to see if the block was tapped for 2 or 4 bolt mains. Are the splayed caps a substantial improvement over factory 2 bolt caps?

[BruceWilkie]

I'm going to start another thread for those interested in some of the differences between a 59 389 and a 69 400 block.