[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Dave at SD does OUTSTANDING port work for the money and has cnc programming for the KRE high ports and all of the E-Heads.

The info posted by GTOFREEK is true. The typical flow bench is a orifice bench (Superflow design) with individual calibration sheets for each bench based on a industry standard.

The other benches, using a pitot tube (velocity bench) measure the airflow in a different manner. Most of the guys posting on the Flow Bench Forum (including the owner of the Forum) have moved away from the pitot tube bench to a orifice style bench design.

The old guy who made the pitot bench for the other guys was not a big time flow bench guy (and never claimed to be). Superflow is a multinational flow bench corporation.

All that being said, if someone says they improved your flow by "x" percent you can decide whether to believe the data or not.

The Super Flow Bench Guys on the Flow Bench Forum did a "master orifice" using three orifices on benches all over the country. The data is available on the forum. Most of the shops with Superflow equipment were very close including Larry Meiux.

The master bench was a 7 Million Dollar flow stand owned by one of the OEMs.

So do you believe Joe Bubba's back yard bench or a 7 million dollar bench?

Some will still say that Joe Bubba's back yard bench is the equal of the 7 million dollar bench. Whatever.

Just saying, guaranteed the numbers (as was said WILL be different).

Tom V.

The data is here, but would take some looking: http://www.flowbenchtech.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=5

Tom,
Just a very minor point Larry's name is Meaux.

Stan

[Formula8]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Form', that's a nice flow sheet. Very informative.

Thanks, the heads work a bit better than I expected. That said, if I had it all over to do again, I would have to seriously consider the new Edelbrock D-ports and let PKMM have at them. Not that I am having any problems with my KREs but if the same or better can be achieved with an Edelbrock casting, I would have preferred that. The Edelbrock D ports were fairly new at the time I decided to go KRE but had they been out a bit longer and more people were using the Edelbrock D port successfully, I probably would have went that direction.

[Skip Fix]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

"I hink Jeff Kauffman has better customer service and that's more important to me."


Your opinion. There are a large bunch of previous customes who received poor service and/or defective produts that if they has the balls to speak up would disagree !

Onward...........
.

X2 I've had CNC ported round port heads from both KRE and Dave. Both flow good numbers, the KRE ported heads on my pump gas motor in the '78 and it makes good HP. But SD's heads I did not have to disassemble and clean CNC shavings out of every port and coolant passage, then re assemble to use!

[grivera]

Originally Posted by Formula8

Why is intake flowed at .550 vs. exhaust at .600?

[Formula8]

Originally Posted by grivera

Why is intake flowed at .550 vs. exhaust at .600?

My guess would be my cam specs at the time. Not for sure though.

[ta man]

I have a flow sheet from SD also ,pretty similar.What your average guy doesn't realize is both will set up the heads to match your cam or select a cam/head package that works.I have ran .650 lift with a hyd roller with Dave's heads for 7 years with zero issues...The odd time I do email him...I get a reply within a day or two....I have even P'M here on PY with questions or track results and he answers quickly.

[Will]

Originally Posted by Formula8

... if I had it all over to do again, I would have to seriously consider the new Edelbrock D-ports and let PKMM have at them. Not that I am having any problems with my KREs but if the same or better can be achieved with an Edelbrock casting, I would have preferred that. The Edelbrock D ports were fairly new at the time I decided to go KRE but had they been out a bit longer and more people were using the Edelbrock D port successfully, I probably would have went that direction.

Curious - why would you prefer the Edelbrocks? Honest question, I don't have a dog in any fight.

[steve25]

More likely due to fact that most of the Cams that we run in our motors have more Exh valve lift and the fact that if your into the 290 cfm range by .500" lift on the intake the motor will be making great power numbers even with a cam of only .500" lift.

[Formula8]

Originally Posted by Will

Curious - why would you prefer the Edelbrocks? Honest question, I don't have a dog in any fight.

Let me be clear, I have had absolutely no problems whatsoever with my KRE heads. That is part of the reason I bought them as they have been out on the market long enough that one would think any design issues would have been resolved by now. I also don't want this to hijack into a KRE vs. E-head thread.

That being said, there were a few things that made me raise an eyebrow when they cam in. I noticed some pin holes on the external surface. These have not leaked a drop of anything and there are none on any machined surface but it kinda' makes you wonder where else these pin holes are. My understanding is that Edelbrock casting quality is better.

The bolt holes for the exhaust, while accurately located, do not have steel inserts, nor are they countersunk like factory heads. These means the bolt needs to be 100% perpendicular to the surface to thread in otherwise you run the risk of cross-threading. This is a difficult trick with headers and it is my understanding Edelbrock uses inserts.

The bolt holes on the intake are not countersunk for use of gasket locators. Not a big deal but I usually don't use sealer on my intake gaskets to hold them in place.

There was interference between the guide plates and my valve covers. Nothing a bit of grinding on my cast aluminum cover didn't take care of.

All nitpicky stuff but these things were not cheap either. Outside of the inserts and casting, I don't see any of this adding a lot of production cost to the heads and I countersunk the holes last time I had them off which made header installation a breeze again.

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by Formula8

Let me be clear, I have had absolutely no problems whatsoever with my KRE heads. That is part of the reason I bought them as they have been out on the market long enough that one would think any design issues would have been resolved by now. I also don't want this to hijack into a KRE vs. E-head thread.

That being said, there were a few things that made me raise an eyebrow when they cam in. I noticed some pin holes on the external surface. These have not leaked a drop of anything and there are none on any machined surface but it kinda' makes you wonder where else these pin holes are. My understanding is that Edelbrock casting quality is better.

The bolt holes for the exhaust, while accurately located, do not have steel inserts, nor are they countersunk like factory heads. These means the bolt needs to be 100% perpendicular to the surface to thread in otherwise you run the risk of cross-threading. This is a difficult trick with headers and it is my understanding Edelbrock uses inserts.

The bolt holes on the intake are not countersunk for use of gasket locators. Not a big deal but I usually don't use sealer on my intake gaskets to hold them in place.

There was interference between the guide plates and my valve covers. Nothing a bit of grinding on my cast aluminum cover didn't take care of.

All nitpicky stuff but these things were not cheap either. Outside of the inserts and casting, I don't see any of this adding a lot of production cost to the heads and I countersunk the holes last time I had them off which made header installation a breeze again.

That's porosity. Thing is, I have seen just as much porosity in E-heads, so they are no better in that aspect. I see porosity in most aluminum heads cast in the USA. The best castings I have seen are cast in Australia. They make some nice castings.

[Skip Fix]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

That's porosity. Thing is, I have seen just as much porosity in E-heads, so they are no better in that aspect. I see porosity in most aluminum heads cast in the USA. The best castings I have seen are cast in Australia. They make some nice castings.

Paul I will disagree-I have not seen as many heads as you, for sure, but I've seen a number KREs, High Ports(I have a set), aluminum 409 heads from BWR, Mopar heads,and numerous Edelbrock heads. All of the smaller companies and their foundries being a "small pour"for KRE, etc have much more porosity than any Edelbrock head I've seen. Teh E heads have a much "cleaner" look. Whether those small pits will be an issue I hope not when I use the High Ports!

The first aluminum Pontiac head ever Wentzlers had big porosity issues.

[gtofreek]

I took pictures of an E-Head with terrible porosity and posted it on one of these sites years ago. It was every bit as bad as the KRE heads I saw. What I'm saying is most of them have it. I've seen it in Dart, Edelbrock, KRE, and a couple other of the American companies. The heads I have NOT seen porosity in is the heads I have seen come from Australia[CHI]. They have very clean castings. Maybe the American companies should learn from them.

[Will]

Thank you Formula8 - I agree that this should not become an E vs KRE head thread. Was just curious what your selection criteria were.

[gtofreek]

All I am saying is none of them are immune to porosity, so It bugs me when people pick on KRE for it. Not saying E-heads are bad, just that they too have good batch's and bad batches, when it comes to porosity.

[Skip Fix]

My first set of aluminum 409 heads Bob cast were really porous as well as holes not well finished so they went back. He's got an aluminum block and more recent heads have been better all around finish and has changed the casting and dome guys getting better numbers out of them vs Edelbrock heads. I'm sure none are immune, but out of the 5 sets of E heads I have from some of their first Pontiac batch, and first 409 batches they are all pretty darned clean.

But heck my SR #614 RAIV head new had a pit hole in an exhaust port roof.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

Paul I will disagree-I have not seen as many heads as you, for sure, but I've seen a number KREs, High Ports(I have a set), aluminum 409 heads from BWR, Mopar heads,and numerous Edelbrock heads. All of the smaller companies and their foundries being a "small pour"for KRE, etc have much more porosity than any Edelbrock head I've seen. Teh E heads have a much "cleaner" look. Whether those small pits will be an issue I hope not when I use the High Ports!



The first aluminum Pontiac head ever Wentzlers had big porosity issues.

X 2 !!!

[Aaron Quinton]

I've worked with KRE and have the utmost respect for what they do. Jeff and I get on well and Jeff will tell you what he thinks.

The difference between the two are the heads are the same, each company offer their own CNC port designs that are machined into the head castings. I owned a set of High Ports that were ported by SD. They were high quality pieces. I don't think SD would offer KRE head options if the there were issues with the castings.

With all that being said I would not spend any time talking about flow bench and # comparisons. The engine does not care what efficiency head shows at constant flow delta P on a flow bench. For example, I've looked at two Pontiac heads that flowed roughly the same numbers on a flow bench. One head made 100 more hp than the other. We don't race flow benches.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Aaron Quinton

I've worked with KRE and have the utmost respect for what they do. Jeff and I get on well and Jeff will tell you what he thinks.

The difference between the two are the heads are the same, each company offer their own CNC port designs that are machined into the head castings. I owned a set of High Ports that were ported by SD. They were high quality pieces. I don't think SD would offer KRE head options if the there were issues with the castings.

With all that being said I would not spend any time talking about flow bench and # comparisons. The engine does not care what efficiency head shows at constant flow delta P on a flow bench. For example, I've looked at two Pontiac heads that flowed roughly the same numbers on a flow bench. One head made 100 more hp than the other. We don't race flow benches.

Aaron,
Do you have CSA's, velocity probe numbers, or port volume cc's?

Stan

[Aaron Quinton]

All I can say is bigger is better for hp, not the bench.

[TCSGTO]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

All I am saying is none of them are immune to porosity, so It bugs me when people pick on KRE for it. Not saying E-heads are bad, just that they too have good batch's and bad batches, when it comes to porosity.

My E-heads developed an external coolant leak in the no 8 spark plug hole about a year after they were put in use. I put a small amount of ceramic seal in the radiator and drained it after an hour of run time. The leak stopped and hasn't returned. This was at least 10 years ago and the heads have been on and off several times, machined and reinstalled with no more sealer and no leaks, so far.