[Torquewar]

Great thread.
Have some new solid Morels and a OF that i have been running. Looking at spring pressures now....Like your thoughts on this Steve.

[Steve C.]

Thanks Darby.

My notes on this specific hybrid solid roller subject go back a few years and I don't want to be purposely misleading with my information. I know Tom has run the set up for a long time and his comments are always helpful.

My thoughts on the subject... Like Tom I'm a strong advocate for adequate spring pressure ! His statement here... "Really no down side and only upside"

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[Formula8]

Maybe I am not doing this right. Crane specs the spring at 130 lbs @ 1.850. The stated spring rate is 391 ibs/in. My installed height is 1.770 which is .08 less. The pressure gained from decreasing the IH from 1.850 to 1.770 would be .08 X 391 or 31 lbs. I added the 31 lbs to the 130 and arrive at 161 lbs @ 1.770. Marginal? Maybe, but others have run this successfully.

Conceptually, if there were multiple examples of others who successfully ran this set up and measured theirs at 75 lbs (just to illustrate an example), would not that imply the springs at this IH are sufficient for the parameters they run their engines regardless of pressure?

That being said, I value your thoughts on spring pressure they are not lost on me. That is why you were mentioned in my first question. I am on a budget and I wanted to do this for a reasonable cost. If that means I have to limit the RPM, that is a consequence I accept. This is not a track car, nor has it ever been or will probably be at the track. Certainly, if I was starting with a clean sheet of paper, I doubt if this is the spring I would have chosen. But to make a spring change at this point would represent a fairly major undertaking. For me this started out as fixing a spun rod bearing and has spiraled into spending an additional $1,000 to replace a cam I was perfectly happy with.

[grandville455]

Originally Posted by Formula8

Maybe I am not doing this right. Crane specs the spring at 130 lbs @ 1.850. The stated spring rate is 391 ibs/in. My installed height is 1.770 which is .08 less. The pressure gained from decreasing the IH from 1.850 to 1.770 would be .08 X 391 or 31 lbs. I added the 31 lbs to the 130 and arrive at 161 lbs @ 1.770. Marginal? Maybe, but others have run this successfully.

Conceptually, if there were multiple examples of others who successfully ran this set up and measured theirs at 75 lbs (just to illustrate an example), would not that imply the springs at this IH are sufficient for the parameters they run their engines regardless of pressure?

That being said, I value your thoughts on spring pressure they are not lost on me. That is why you were mentioned in my first question. I am on a budget and I wanted to do this for a reasonable cost. If that means I have to limit the RPM, that is a consequence I accept. This is not a track car, nor has it ever been or will probably be at the track. Certainly, if I was starting with a clean sheet of paper, I doubt if this is the spring I would have chosen. But to make a spring change at this point would represent a fairly major undertaking. For me this started out as fixing a spun rod bearing and has spiraled into spending an additional $1,000 to replace a cam I was perfectly happy with.

Doesn't matter how the math works, they don't measure as advertised, least my sets weren't close, brand new, your fine, I was fine with a new set and shifting at 5800.... Your not racing, don't sweat it n enjoy your car!! IMO

[Steve C.]

Good initial set up and keeping a close eye on the valve lash can alert you to a problem before it leads to a pernicious death of your solid roller valvetrain.


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[goatman65]

Gee, you sound just like me. I'm tearing my engine down for what I think is a rod knock and now i'm thinking about spending $1000's on a roller cam from SD and possibly more port work on my fairly new KRE heads.

[Formula8]

Originally Posted by goatman65

Gee, you sound just like me. I'm tearing my engine down for what I think is a rod knock and now i'm thinking about spending $1000's on a roller cam from SD and possibly more port work on my fairly new KRE heads.

Nothing against SD. Dave did a nice job on my heads but the shipping was stupid expensive. I would drop Paul K a line @ (630) 400-4441 as his part prices were very competitive and he does cylinder head porting. He has done some machine work for me as well and I have been happy with his work and service each time.

[tom s]

I have posted this more than once.When Comp came out with their hyd roller cams I ordered a cam and kit for a RA V build.After getting it I called Comp and asked if they were OK with their lifters at 6000 to 6500.They called me back and asked me to send the kit back and they replaced them with solid rollers and springs and wanted 200 on the seats with 600 open and set at 6 thou.I have run the hybrid for more than 15 years.Now with the hyd roller lifters being proven at more than 7000 I have changed to their lifters.Have my last 3 engines with them and just ordered a set to replace the solids in my 421 SD engine.My last build made HP to close to 7000.For a hipo street engine I no longer see the need for the hybrid setup.Again I run higher spring pressures.Comp told me no issues with 180. FWIW,Tom

[Formula8]

Originally Posted by tom s

I have posted this more than once.When Comp came out with their hyd roller cams I ordered a cam and kit for a RA V build.After getting it I called Comp and asked if they were OK with their lifters at 6000 to 6500.They called me back and asked me to send the kit back and they replaced them with solid rollers and springs and wanted 200 on the seats with 600 open and set at 6 thou.I have run the hybrid for more than 15 years.Now with the hyd roller lifters being proven at more than 7000 I have changed to their lifters.Have my last 3 engines with them and just ordered a set to replace the solids in my 421 SD engine.My last build made HP to close to 7000.For a hipo street engine I no longer see the need for the hybrid setup.Again I run higher spring pressures.Comp told me no issues with 180. FWIW,Tom

I was unable to find a HR lifter that restricted oil to the top end while offering pin oiling for the roller bearings. Again, many have had good experience with the Crower 66260H so that was a major factor as that can't be said with many HR roller lifters.

Well, for reasons outside of the scope of this post, this 455 is on it's final go around. If it doesn't hold together for awhile, it's getting replaced by a 400 based motor as I already have a virgin 71 400 block. I hope by then the heads will need a freshen up which will include provisions for a spring with a bit more girth to it and ability to achieve the kind of spring pressures you are recommending.

[Steve C.]

I must admit I have not used any hydraulic lifters in over 20 years. All my different engine combinations used in my car since then have been solid roller cams. And never a hybrid solid roller set up.

I have a friend here in town that changed from a Comp XE 242 solid roller cam to the Old Faithful hydraulic roller a few years ago, he used his Crower solid roller lifters and retained his solid roller valve springs. Today they are probably 180+ pounds seat pressure and he sleeps well !

And again my Comp Rep said a minimum of 150 lbs on the seat with the OF cam and solid roller lifters, measured after run in. But then Comp still regurgitates the use of their 995 valve spring with 115 lbs seat pressure


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[tom s]

Steve,since I have run the hybrid I had a issue one in the tempest.For some reason I checked the lash and found one a touch loose.Had bearing going bad and the lifter body was just starting to kiss the lobe.Put a fresh set of lifters in and are still in there until my sissy lifters arrive.Sometimes you get lucky and don't wipe out a engine.Tom

[J GLASGO]

Originally Posted by tom s

Steve,since I have run the hybrid I had a issue one in the tempest.For some reason I checked the lash and found one a touch loose.Had bearing going bad and the lifter body was just starting to kiss the lobe.Put a fresh set of lifters in and are still in there until my sissy lifters arrive.Sometimes you get lucky and don't wipe out a engine.Tom

What hyd rollers you going to run?

[Formula8]

Yeah, that is why I prefer a solid valve train as it is usually fairly easy to hear/feel if something is wearing as the lash opens up. At .005 or so, slight changes should be audible. Cliff says his is dead quiet at .006.

Anyway, I probably should have given more background of where I am to clarify what input I am looking for. The engine is back in the car with the springs set up, heads and cam installed. The only thing left for me to do was confirm the pushrod length, set the lash, install a replacement distributor drive gear and install the valley pan so those are the areas I am looking at. The main reason I brought up the valve spring pressure was to see what impact the spring pressure would have on the pushrod choice. I think I will retain the pushrods as the pattern on the value tip is good so I am down the the distributor gear and valley pan as areas that need consideration.

[Formula8]

Steve C, Tom S and Paul K, thanks for your thoughts about the springs for my application. I want to get this motor up and running on the Crane springs. I do not disagree with you that they are marginal for my application and that I should seriously consider swapping them out after this motor has proven that it is going to stay together.

So......I was back in the Crower catalog and found 68380X2 which has the same 1.460 OD as the Crane but a .093 smaller ID. As I recall, I should not have a problem with this ID. The springs should fit in the same space as the Cranes and I may be able keep my existing retainers. They don't burst the wallet either. At an IH of 1.800 Crower claims the spring should give me 197 on the seat and 474 open. I would probably run around a 1.840 IH based on these figures. My thought is to get the motor up and running again and once I get some gentle miles on it, swap out springs and pushrods for greater peace of mind but I invite the thoughts of others.

[ponjohn]

What about bee hives?

[Steve C.]

"When I ran my 260'[email protected] Hyd roller I ran 150 seat with 405 open and at Virginia on spray, 7000 rpm thru the traps it ran perfect. I use the Beehive springs/titanium retainers as you can use less pressure with better valve control. Well Worth the extra money. Easier on parts too."

Pontiac Dude

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...hlight=Beehive


Higher rpm with less spring, means more power and reliability.



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[tom s]

John,the last 3 sets have been Comp with no issue,going with them again.Tom

[78w72]

Originally Posted by tom s

John,the last 3 sets have been Comp with no issue,going with them again.Tom

how many turns past zero lash are you setting them too? i had a set of the "old" comp & they started ticking after a short time, comp replaced them under warranty with the "new" 857s. new ones call for 1/2 turn past zero & the old ones were 1 full turn.

[J GLASGO]

Thanks. Used several 857s,(no problems) 1 morel(took way too long to pump up on initial starts, otherwise ok), and one set of cranes.(noisy). Just wondered if comp was making the short travel hyd rollers for a Pontiac yet.

[tom s]

John,I know they make HP to 7K!Tom