[steve25]

Who knows, Pontiac in the late 60s may have been getting stingy with the 4 bolt caps, as they where Armasteel, not the plane cast of the 2 bolt caps!

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

We brought the Grocery Getter out in 1996 with three 1972-1974 455 stock blocks. Using Program Engineering caps. The crankshafts were stock Pontiac N cranks, carefully prepared by me with no surface treatments, just nice oil holes and large radius. Lots of tuning errors with the nitrous. Lots of time spent learning the ignition timing the engine really wanted. Even a quarter mile run starting in 2nd. gear with all that nitrous when a shift linkage part failed. Never made the kind of power Marty made, but I would argue, we may have been just as abusive to the block. We were right at 1000 HP which was allot in those days. All three blocks did eventually fail and they all failed in the same area. Right up the oil passage at the #2 oil feed drilling from the main saddle to the cam bearing. At least for us, that was the weak spot in the 455's. Overall, the Pontiac block is very tough. By the way, no lifter brace in any of the blocks. Roller cam though with .850 lift and 260 lbs. on the seat back in those old days. We also ran our blocks unfilled. Didn't want the weight, didn't want the bore distortion, did want the cooling.

Marty had a NA block 455 HO I believe, that was run at Norwalk, 740 HP range, just prior to the Turbo project. He decided to stop racing the engine 'one pass before the engine failed' (He drove the car on the trailer and we saw the failures when the engine was torn down).

All three center 4 bolt main caps were cracked. #3 was starting to crack up the inside bolt hole in the main cap. #4 was cracked about 1/3-1/2 of the way up the inside bolt hole, and the #2 main cap was cracked all the way up the hole on one side.
The outer bolt and the center stud and nut/washer were the only things keeping the cap in place. It was now a 2 piece cap.

So my visual inspection of the block/main cap failure said: that the #2 main failed first, then the #4 main, then the #3 main was soon to follow.

That fits exactly with your failures in the "#2 oil feed drilling from the main saddle" with your 455 engine blocks, Mike.

Tom V.

[johnta1]

My 70 Trans Am Ram Air III was also this way. It was a WS block

Mike, would you have any block info on the WS?
(the engine unit number, cast date code, etc?)

Never heard or seen a WS with 2 bolt caps.


Steve's YZ maybe, but I would think that would be an anomaly also?

Steve any block info on it?

Were these late year TA's?

1970 generally was the only years I have seen the 4 bolt drilled blocks, with 2 bolt caps.
(but doesn't mean much either )

[Steve C.]

According to old records from 1982 my '70 Trans Am is vin 228870N115457, motor number 0518873, 9799914 YZ block. On cowl tag 22387NOR729068 BDY

And now looking at these records I think I was incorrect about the main caps in my previous post. These old notes say 4-bolt main. It came with a TH400 trans.


.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by tom s

70 RA III and RAIV blocks were 4 bolt mains.Tom

On paper, at least. As mentioned, my 70 TA Ram Air III was drilled for 4 bolt caps but had 2 bolt caps on it. I was the second owner, it was a low mileage, numbers matching car. Who knows. It was a 4-speed car.

[mgarblik]

I owned that TA from Feb. 1977 to spring of 1988. I do have a photo album and possibly some block pictures. I will give it an honest look later today. I am certain I do not have the VIN, Production date, or block numbers. We just didn't care in those days or I was too stupid to care. Also, at least for me, I didn't take anything apart unless it was broken.

Tom, Marty was so very lucky he put that car on the trailer when he did. Some kind of divine intervention. One more run would have been total engine destruction. No doubt the flexibility of the Program Engineering steel caps helped keep our lower end together along with the aluminum rods and light pistons.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Tom, Marty was so very lucky he put that car on the trailer when he did. Some kind of divine intervention. One more run would have been total engine destruction. No doubt the flexibility of the Program Engineering steel caps helped keep our lower end together along with the aluminum rods and light pistons.

I was truly amazed when he showed me the engine.

A perfect example of where the failures started and the sequence of the failures.
One in a Million for sure.

Tom V.

[goatwgn]

By the way, this is a WT block.

[mgarblik]

I looked at my small album of pics I still have of that car. I need to scan them to make them easier to share. I have no pictures of the engine out of the car. Just a few pics of the underhood with engine installed. I don't think PHS was around in those days, the car cost me $1500.00 and it was a decent running car. I do remember the 2 bolt caps and being surprised. If no one else has seen this, then I would guess either the caps were changed, I would have no idea why, or it was a WS block from another year or model swapped-in before I bought the car. As I recall, the car only had 65K or so miles on it and it really looked like the engine had never been touched. Wish I would have been smart enough to have really investigated it. At least around here, nobody really cared about all this stuff in the late 70's, early 80's. We were just puzzled for a few minutes and went on to the next project.

[Rocky Rotella]

Originally Posted by steve25

Who knows, Pontiac in the late 60s may have been getting stingy with the 4 bolt caps, as they where Armasteel, not the plane cast of the 2 bolt caps!

Steve,

Where did you find this info?

[FrankieT/A]

" I don't think PHS was around in those days"

I bought my 72 Formula 455HO around 1981 and I called Pontiac back then and was able to get production numbers on the car. I still have the notes and the phone number I called to get the info. I think the department I reached is what PHS is today or where all that info came from or basically somehow connected.

['ol Pinion head]

1800PMCARES was the pre PHS way to contact for production numbers. Late '68 up into mid '70's Pontiacs. No earlier info tip PHS got going, also no invoice copies on late '70's. When PHS started, was $35 a pop.

Have owned several original '70 YZ blocks & engines & upon disassembly all had factory 4 bolt caps. First one I bought was as a decent running engine. Original RA carb to pan for $400, that was '84, I believe. Ended up tearing it down, still had original freeze plugs & original Morraine 400 bearings. Have to dig out records, seem to remember it having an E220 dated block.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head

1800PMCARES was the pre PHS way to contact for production numbers. Late '68 up into mid '70's Pontiacs. No earlier info tip PHS got going, also no invoice copies on late '70's. When PHS started, was $35 a pop.

Happy Thanksgiving OPH! Talk about bringing back memories.

I also called the 1800PMCARES number 1-800 762-2737 many, many years ago.

I talked to a very nice Lady there and told her my uncle owned a Pontiac Store.
I said I was trying to get information on my 64 GTO. She asked where the car was built, KC, and I gave her the VIN Number.

I said that my uncle was a friend of the National Sales Manager and I had received the car thru him. It was previously a Zone Car for the St Louis zone.

A few weeks later I received a Pontiac Motors Envelope with my GTO info in side.
All of the info was hand-written (one option at a time) and described each option in detail:
(The codes and what the codes meant for my GTO based on the info in HER records.)

Some years later I paid the money for the PHS stuff after talking with Jim M at a Pontiac event. As many now know the info did not line up correctly for a 1964 KC built GTO.

The Lady from Pontiac Motor's info was spot on. So again, if you have a KC built 1964 GTO there might be info that does not match with the PHS info.

I believe that the PHS info after 1964 is much more accurate for the KC built vehicles.

Tom V.

I really wish I had asked Mr McKeller a lot more questions (when he was alive and at the local car shows) about the engine stuff.
He could probably recite it "Chapter and Verse". PY is great for the posts and info. I hope someone is saving all of the info somewhere.

[steve25]

Rocky, you mean about the Armasteel main caps?

[Rocky Rotella]

Yes

[steve25]

It's from a 1970 Pontiac A body drivetrain spec sheet.
I will post it up here tomorrow for you.

[Rocky Rotella]

Thanks, Steve. I think we may have the same source, but I would be interested in seeing yours regardless.

[Kenth]

This may shed some light:

[steve25]

Yes Ken, that's a part of the info that I have.
Mine is 3 pages from a 1973 Motion performance catalog.
They where located in Baldwin LI.

[Tom Vaught]

So if you have a Block with a Manual Trans block code and it was installed in a RA-III or RA-IV car with a Manual Trans, you probably got the better "armasteel" grade cast iron caps vs the normal iron block grade cast iron main caps.

That "armasteel" grade cast iron has fooled a bunch of people over the years.

"Much of this results from GM's marketing efforts to apply a certain mystique to standard engineering materials. First, Armasteel is not steel but a GM trade name for a grade of pearlitic malleable cast iron. As a 1982 GM brochure explains, it is a ferrous alloy with temper carbon in a matrix of tempered pearlite or tempered martensite. It was produced at the GM Central Foundry Saginaw Malleable Iron plant (SMI), which was closed in mid-2007."

So still a cast iron main cap block deal.

Tom V.