[Cliff R]

501 CID and 11 to 1 compression will manage pump fuel w/o issues, however the cam is a tad small and tight LSA, both of which work against you when it comes to using pump fuel with high compression.

My 455 is 11 to 1 compression (10.99 exactly), and it does fine on pump gas. Cam specs are 289/308, 236/245 on a 112LSA with the ICL at 109.5 degrees........for comparison purposes.....Cliff

[Burningbird]

Recalculated the compression ratio and only got 10.8:1. This is with 4.211" bore, 4.5"-stroke, 87cc chambers, 6cc(?) dish/valve relief in pistons, 0.045" gasket thickness, 4.3"(?) gasket bore diameter and the pistons 0.005"(?) down in the block. Waiting for Butler to email me back about short filling the block.

[gtofreek]

Cliff, I used that cam in a 455 and it manages pump gas just fine. It was high tens on compression. These aren't Comp lobes, so the same laws don't apply.

[Burningbird]

Thanks for all the wisdom and help given in this thread, appreciate it! I will try to clarify some things. The block, rotating assembly and heads is bought from Butler as a ready to assemble shortblock kit. According to their website the rods in the kit is 6.8" long. From Butler's website:

"462-501 CI short block kit
*Complete Internally Balanced longrod rotating assembly & high-performance prepped block
*4.000", 4.210", 4.250", or 4.500" stroke cast or forged crank (4-Bolt Billet Mains Caps recommended for 4.5" stroke)
*Internally Balanced
*Ross Racing Pistons (Bore 4.181 - 4.211)-Flat Top (Dish or Dome/additional charge)
*H-Beam Rods
*File fit rings
*Performance Rod bearings
*Performance Main bearings
*455 Performance Prepped Block
cleaned
*magnafluxed
*sonic tested
*completely deburred
*bored and honed with torque plate
*line honed with ARP main studs
*deck squared
*cam bearings and brass freeze plugs installed
*ready to assemble"

I will contact Butler and see if they the can short fill the block with Hard Block which seems like a good idea. Thank you for the information about the Lunati roller lifters Paul! I will definitely make the modification you suggested. The timing set is a 9-way so I will install the cam with the ICL @104°. If the engine can't take the 11:1 compression without knocking I will follow Cliff's advice and try another cam, perhaps the Road Paver with 114LSA?

steve25 - The rear end is being rebuilt with Fabcraft's 3:55 HD gear and a custom posi unit from Jeff at Engineered Performance. The TH400 trans will get a Hughes performance rebuild kit and HD sprag. The carb will be supplied through a RobbMc Power Surge system rated to 900hp @ 7psi.

[gtofreek]

You''l be fine with that Voodoo cam. I use a lot of them and it'll be fine.

[Cliff R]

Paul, agreed, for sure that cam would be fine in a 455 with some compression in it on pump gas, but this engine is 501cid and a solid 11 to 1 compression. Pound for pound it's smaller than my OF cam in my 455, and tighter LSA. I'm not sure if it would be pump gas friendly or not, since it's territory I've not been in yet, but at a glance it raises a flag from where I'm sitting.......Cliff

[gtofreek]

I guarantee you that cam will make power well past 6000 rpm, and the point at which hydraulic lifters meet there limit. How fast does one want to spin a 4.5" stroke? Don't know how you figure it's smaller than your OF cam. The 231/239 Voodoo pretty much matches the OF[within 2°]. This cam is quite a bit bigger than OF. IIRC, it was bigger than the RP at .200" also. If it is installed at 103°-104° ICL, I wouldn't be worried at all of it detonating. There is a lot more to detonation than just the intake closing point. Contaminating the intake charge with exhaust gasses is a bigger cause of detonation, than intake closing point. Less exhaust gasses in the charge, means a faster burn rate of the A/F in the chamber. Get that A/F burned before max cylinder pressure occurs, and it won't detonate. The only VooDoo cammed engine that I built that has detonated is a 428 with 10.8:1 Compression with #62 iron heads. That engine has the 233/241 HFT Voodoo in it, on a 110°, and it only detonates in the heat of the summer here. During the cool months, it's fine on 91 octane. Key is getting these Voodoos advanced. Harold did things to these lobes that no one else has ever done[and it's not just the non-symmetrical lobes, there's a lot more to it than that], and that's why his 110° LSA lobes have the power band of others 114° lobes. Remember the 413 I recently did, and posted results for here? That engine made over 400 ft. lbs. of torque at 1500 rpm, and made peak power at 5300, but carried that same power out to 6000 RPM. That's a 4500 RPM power band on a 110° lobe in a 400. That was on 91 pump gas too, at 10.1:1 compression. No detonation. That thing had to be making a ton of cylinder pressure to make 415 ft. lbs. at 1500 RPM. I bet this 501 will make well over 500 ft. lbs. at 1500 rpm with this cam.

[Steve C.]

On the engine dyno my previous 462 build with the older design Edelbrock chambers likes 37 degrees total timing.

Keep in mind Dave Bisschop's comments directed toward a 10.5 static compression ratio was a general recommendation. Again for engines leaving his shop to be used under all types of driving conditions, unknown gas quality, unknown camshaft parameters, and not knowing how the end customer would tune and operate the combination.

I agree under the right conditions it can be higher but he is like many engine builders that do not suggest pushing it for most people with a lot of unknowns. Personally I agree and don't push the compression on my cars for a limited increase in potential performance that may or maynot be noticed on a street car. Thus just my .02


.

[Burningbird]

I was thinking if I should use a windage tray on this engine. It has a stock type oilpan with a baffle (RPC 6-quart) and Butler's crank scraper. The only one that seems to fit a 4.5 crank with stock style pan is the one Spott Performance makes. Will a see a 10hp gain with a tray or is it just a waste of money on this 6000rpm engine?

[Cliff R]

Then the OP should run that cam and see if it works, that is the only way to know for sure with these things......Cliff

[slowbird]

Bulter is building the engine correct? Why would he build a street engine that wouldn't perform as expected and be detonation prone? I would think with all of their yrs of experience they would have some what of a clue by now.

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Bulter is building the engine correct? Why would he build a street engine that wouldn't perform as expected and be detonation prone? I would think with all of their yrs of experience they would have some what of a clue by now.

Yep, you would think!

[Burningbird]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Bulter is building the engine correct? Why would he build a street engine that wouldn't perform as expected and be detonation prone? I would think with all of their yrs of experience they would have some what of a clue by now.

Yes, Butler is prepping the block, rotating assembly and build the heads to match the Voodoo HR cam with 1.65-rockers but I'll assemble the engine. Told them intended use of the car, trans, stall, gearing, and disired compression ratio. In the email I got back from them they told me that I had done a good job of selecting parts for the kit and that they would contact me if any questions arose during the time the short block and heads are being built. I'll check with them of they can short fill the block with Hard Block before the machine work. I followed grivera's advice and looked up the Harland Sharp rockers. Could not find a single thread where a HS rocker have failed. So I decided to get their Diamond series (400$ @ Jegs).

[gtofreek]

Lets look at it a little differently.

1. I'm sure we can all agree that the LSA is the amount of degrees between the center of the peak of the intake lobe, and the center of the exhaust lobe.

2. I'm sure we can also agree that both valves are not open at max lift at the same time. Therefore what is happening at max lift is not what's responsible for the power changes created from LSA changes.

3. I think we can also agree that power changes from LSA changes are due mainly to exhaust valve positioning at TDC during overlap. This reduces overlap.

4. I think we can also agree that intake valve opening is sooner with a narrow lobe sep angle. And that exhaust valve opening is delayed with narrow lobe seps. This keeps torque pushing on the crank for a longer period of time[crank degrees]. More torque being made.

5. So, with that being said, one of the tricks Harold did with these lobes is he not only made them non-symmetrical, but he also[and I probably shouldn't be saying this, but Harold is no longer with us, so it probably doesn't matter as much now]offset the lobes from the center of the cam core. No one else does this. By offsetting the lobes, it changes the exhaust positioning at TDC on a cam ground on a 110° LSA, to emulate a non-offset lobe ground on a higher LSA like 113°-114°. But at the same time, it positions the intake lobe more like a cam ground on a tighter LSA. This is how they get such wide power bands out of what some might call a narrow lobe sep. Now, when the piston is at TDC during overlap, the exhaust valve is closed a lot more than the intake is open. By advancing these offset lobes 6°, it gets the intake to exhaust lobe relationship to emulate a wider lobe sep. I know a lot of people won't fully understand this, but Harold was a very smart man, and had a lot of tricks up his sleeves. There are other things he did to these lobes, and his other lobes that I am not going to get into that has to do with valve action.

I just wish people would give them a try before deciding they are no good based solely off of what a cam card says. The cam specs in the books are really deceiving when it comes to these lobes. I just ask that before these are judged, they be tried first. After all, you can't say a meal sucks, if you never tasted it.

[Burningbird]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

Lets look at it a little differently.

1. I'm sure we can all agree that the LSA is the amount of degrees between the center of the peak of the intake lobe, and the center of the exhaust lobe.

2. I'm sure we can also agree that both valves are not open at max lift at the same time. Therefore what is happening at max lift is not what's responsible for the power changes created from LSA changes.

3. I think we can also agree that power changes from LSA changes are due mainly to exhaust valve positioning at TDC during overlap. This reduces overlap.

4. I think we can also agree that intake valve opening is sooner with a narrow lobe sep angle. And that exhaust valve opening is delayed with narrow lobe seps. This keeps torque pushing on the crank for a longer period of time[crank degrees]. More torque being made.

5. So, with that being said, one of the tricks Harold did with these lobes is he not only made them non-symmetrical, but he also[and I probably shouldn't be saying this, but Harold is no longer with us, so it probably doesn't matter as much now]offset the lobes from the center of the cam core. No one else does this. By offsetting the lobes, it changes the exhaust positioning at TDC on a cam ground on a 110° LSA, to emulate a non-offset lobe ground on a higher LSA like 113°-114°. But at the same time, it positions the intake lobe more like a cam ground on a tighter LSA. This is how they get such wide power bands out of what some might call a narrow lobe sep. Now, when the piston is at TDC during overlap, the exhaust valve is closed a lot more than the intake is open. By advancing these offset lobes 6°, it gets the intake to exhaust lobe relationship to emulate a wider lobe sep. I know a lot of people won't fully understand this, but Harold was a very smart man, and had a lot of tricks up his sleeves. There are other things he did to these lobes, and his other lobes that I am not going to get into that has to do with valve action.

I just wish people would give them a try before deciding they are no good based solely off of what a cam card says. The cam specs in the books are really deceiving when it comes to these lobes. I just ask that before these are judged, they be tried first. After all, you can't say a meal sucks, if you never tasted it.

Paul - I really appreciate you taking the time to answer questions and share your experiences in this thread! I read through the whole "505 build for the street" and "Noisy Hydraulic roller lifters" threads yesterday. I will make the modification of the lifter bores as you described. Your attention to all the little details in a engine build awesome. If / when I build another engine, I will definitely contact you to build it for me.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

Lets look at it a little differently.

1. I'm sure we can all agree that the LSA is the amount of degrees between the center of the peak of the intake lobe, and the center of the exhaust lobe.

2. I'm sure we can also agree that both valves are not open at max lift at the same time. Therefore what is happening at max lift is not what's responsible for the power changes created from LSA changes.

3. I think we can also agree that power changes from LSA changes are due mainly to exhaust valve positioning at TDC during overlap. This reduces overlap.

4. I think we can also agree that intake valve opening is sooner with a narrow lobe sep angle. And that exhaust valve opening is delayed with narrow lobe seps. This keeps torque pushing on the crank for a longer period of time[crank degrees]. More torque being made.

5. So, with that being said, one of the tricks Harold did with these lobes is he not only made them non-symmetrical, but he also[and I probably shouldn't be saying this, but Harold is no longer with us, so it probably doesn't matter as much now]offset the lobes from the center of the cam core. No one else does this. By offsetting the lobes, it changes the exhaust positioning at TDC on a cam ground on a 110° LSA, to emulate a non-offset lobe ground on a higher LSA like 113°-114°. But at the same time, it positions the intake lobe more like a cam ground on a tighter LSA. This is how they get such wide power bands out of what some might call a narrow lobe sep. Now, when the piston is at TDC during overlap, the exhaust valve is closed a lot more than the intake is open. By advancing these offset lobes 6°, it gets the intake to exhaust lobe relationship to emulate a wider lobe sep. I know a lot of people won't fully understand this, but Harold was a very smart man, and had a lot of tricks up his sleeves. There are other things he did to these lobes, and his other lobes that I am not going to get into that has to do with valve action.

.

Paul, you explained this to me when I paid a visit and it's been hiding in my head ever since. I've been intrigued with the voodoo line of cams since that talk and have been wanting to try one.

[Formulajones]

As far as compression goes with the old bathtub Edelbrock chambers. So far my father has been running his 571 with these old 1st gen style edelbrock heads with 10.84:1 compression for the last couple years on this 91 octane cat pea they call gasoline out here. It's been running just fine and shows no signs of detonation. It made best power on the dyno at 34 degrees too. Conventional wisdom says these chambers need a lot of timing, but that just wasn't the case with this engine. It lost power with anything above or below 34 degrees. Even in the hot dry summer months here it's been fine. Choosing the right camshaft to work with it is key and I trust Bischoff knows what he's doing when he did this engine. The carb tune and engine temps will also play a roll. I suspect Butler will get Burningbird squared away fine, 11:1 really isn't that much of a difference.

[Burningbird]

The problem with bying a new Moroso or Canton oilpan is that I have alredy bought a RPC-pan, oilpump, pickup, complete dipstick and crank scraper from Butler. With a new pan i also have to by a new pickup and dipstick again. If the gain with a windage tray is less then 10hp I don't think it's worth the effort, and I will just run my cheap baffled oilpan and the crank scraper instead. Thanks for the advice Cliff and Steve!

[Steve C.]

Make sure your crank scraper is properly fitted to the crank. Proper distance and contour is important. Careful fitting to ensure proper clearances to the crankshaft.


.

[aasmilyy]

Can you update how it goes with your Engine build.