[Dragncar]

10.90 index ? Is that the quickest you can run or does it at least have to be that quick ?

[firechickenman]

I suppose another option would be to build a 400 and possibly keep the converter and gears. 10.50s might be a little tougher to reach though.

[tininjun68]

Goal is to run 10.90 every round in the Super Street NHRA Class.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Right now on PY for sale, ported 12s with Ferra valves 500$, 4.155 Ross stroker pistons with pins locks new 400$, Roller cam 150$ lifters 225$, a 400 with E heads sold for 3750$ and a 461 with KRE D ports sold for 4000$ complete.
You can find deals. Some people think Pontiac blocks and heads are scrap metal. My brother was given a 71 GTO engine, I bought a 455 with 6X8s. new RPM, Lunati .540lift cam and lifters, roller chain for 350$ and a 67 400 that had a P4B, 48s with hardened seats, bronze guides, good valves, TRW FTs for 50$.
Patience and a little luck.
Me, I pay for port work, machine work and parts. Everything else I do myself.

Well if one gets lucky and finds parts at other peoples unfortunate expense , then it would be cheaper. But having to buy everything new is a whole different situation...

[ponyakr]

Brent Flynn is a guy that may be able to give you some good advice. He has a '68 that he ran as a 10 sec 455 bracket car, then built a budget Stocker engine, and got it under the index. He's now building a 10 sec Stocker engine for next season.

So, he obviously knows enuff to be of some help. He did an entire build thread on the budget engine build, on the Class Racer site. Seems like a real nice guy. Just one other possible source of good info, from someone with hands on experience.

https://www.facebook.com/brent.flynn.501

And, since you'll be running in div 1, you may wanna contact Adam Strang. He's been running a 10 sec '68 Stocker for several years, and runs quite a few div 1 events. He can probably help you with lots of info about running the div races. I think he goes by F/S GTO here.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...r.php?u=138908

[t money]

Also visit or join a forum call ClassRacer.com.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by t money

Also visit or join a forum call ClassRacer.com.

http://classracer.com/classforum/forumdisplay.php?f=6

[Skip Fix]

My pump gas motor in a 3750 lbs car runs 10.90s with light wheels.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Well if one gets lucky and finds parts at other peoples unfortunate expense , then it would be cheaper. But having to buy everything new is a whole different situation...

What makes you think there is anything "unfortunate" about buying some second hand parts. Some people are holding onto piles of parts, like me.
Waiting to fund a project. Some people buy a bunch/lot of parts with the intent of selling what they dont need. Some sell their stash when they are past their racing years. Its going to happen with most of us. Plenty of kids dont want piles of Pontiac parts.
My wife has said she has no idea what my parts are worth if something happened to me. I think labeling them would be a mistake though. Then she would know how much money I have sitting out there. Some things are better left alone.
He only wants to run 10.90s in a 2800lb car. Just about any Pontiac engine can be made to get that done.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

What makes you think there is anything "unfortunate" about buying some second hand parts. Some people are holding onto piles of parts, like me.
Waiting to fund a project. Some people buy a bunch/lot of parts with the intent of selling what they dont need. Some sell their stash when they are past their racing years. Its going to happen with most of us. Plenty of kids dont want piles of Pontiac parts.
My wife has said she has no idea what my parts are worth if something happened to me. I think labeling them would be a mistake though. Then she would know how much money I have sitting out there. Some things are better left alone.
He only wants to run 10.90s in a 2800lb car. Just about any Pontiac engine can be made to get that done.

Its unfortunate because when someone buys something new, whether they use it or not most people wont give them half of what they paid for it... So if you want to spend years going around and searching the internet looking for old or new parts then go do it. But for the people that just want to go out and buy a motor built buy Butler or Kauffman its going to cost in the ballpark of what I said..

https://butlerperformance.com/c-1267...-complete.html

Here's one example of what I mean..

Not every body wants used parts for a engine there going beat on at the track..

There is nothing inaccurate about my assessment ..

[Old Goat Racer]

How much is this "bowtie bird" worth as it sits? Pics

[ta man]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

What makes you think there is anything "unfortunate" about buying some second hand parts. Some people are holding onto piles of parts, like me.
Waiting to fund a project. Some people buy a bunch/lot of parts with the intent of selling what they dont need. Some sell their stash when they are past their racing years. Its going to happen with most of us. Plenty of kids dont want piles of Pontiac parts.
My wife has said she has no idea what my parts are worth if something happened to me. I think labeling them would be a mistake though. Then she would know how much money I have sitting out there. Some things are better left alone.
He only wants to run 10.90s in a 2800lb car. Just about any Pontiac engine can be made to get that done.

Many good engine builds are just that second and third hand parts. If I was the OP I'd start looking for the deals and the "good honest sellers".they are out there especially this time of year.
My current shortblock was one of these deals...It would cost someone double what I paid for it..plus it was built well. A 7500 rpm capable 900 hp capable 466 assembled ,CP pistons,crower billet steel rods,program eng caps,chryo crank and meticulous assembly..

[mysticmissle]

Agree, with the above, budget usually=s more used parts than new. not everyone wants that and that is fine. just changes the price parameter.
I glued together a pretty stought 455 based combo with used parts for my GTO over the last 2 years.
used 455 short block $500 a facebook score of all things
used lifter bore brace, just in case i get stupid on the cam later on $50
new race tech pistons scat rods bearings rings etc roughly $1300
machine shop bill was i think $1500 for bore, balance, clean, cam bearings etc
used set of 330 eheads and victor, morel roller lifters,dyno time only $3200ish
new head bolts $85
used ATI balancer $150
new flex palte $85
used hs 1.5 rockers $150?
nice used roller cam .400 lobeish $175
used carb and fuel pump$550 but i sold fuel pump that came with it for $125
new timing chain, push rods, gaskets, spotts valley pan, misc extras $400
already had oil pan and wires, distributor bought poly gear off here for $125
used moroso vacuum pump $300? mostly to stop any leaks

i get about 8k, now i wished i had not added it up! but it should be pretty bullet proof at less than 6500. I wan to run the local 10.50 heads up class and it will do that with ease in all weather as it is. I had headers and the car already.
went 10.50 first time out foot braking and 10.39 second timeout on the transbrake in 3500# car, with horrible 60 footers. converter is left over from the 540 that is now in the firebirdvand is way too loose. for this little motor. I think it will run in the low 1020s or better with new converter.

How much would this cost from a shop? I have no idea.

[Dave Polichena]

Originally Posted by tininjun68

Goal is to run 10.90 every round in the Super Street NHRA Class.

I would build a 10 second motor if you want to be competitive, MPH helps a ton

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by Dave Polichena

I would build a 10 second motor if you want to be competitive, MPH helps a ton

Yeah, lots of Super Gas racers do the throttle stop thing, to maximize finish line mph. I suppose the thinking is that the come from behind, faster car has the advantage. Don't know if this is the norn, in all the .90 heads-up classes or not.

I personally would not race if I had to race that way. And fans really hate it. Opinions differ.

I'd choose a different class, if throttle stop racing was the only way to win, in the class I wanted to run.

Again, that's another reason why dial-your-own bracket racing is so popular.

If your car will only run high 10's, on a 10.90 index, then you have no choice but to try to cut a real good light & run as close as possible to 10.90, without breaking out. You don't have the luxury of a big cushion to play with, for mid track tactics. If you do that, then you can beat the high speed cars. But you can't play any finish line games, because the fast car is too hard to judge. That's one reason why most bracket door car guys hate to run the fast dragsters.

But, then you have the macho door car guys who say they don't care what car their competition is--they can beat 'em all. These guys are in the minority. So, some tracks run the dragsters separately, at least until the final round.

Hey, all these things need to be consisdered, when building a car, for a particular class or bracket. That is, IF you wanna be competitive. Some are satisfied just to have a race car & get to make a few passes occasionally. Unfortunately, I now fit into this latter category. Just to get to make a few passes, on a regular baisis, would be great. Hey, times & circumstances change. So, I'll take what I can get.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Its unfortunate because when someone buys something new, whether they use it or not most people wont give them half of what they paid for it... So if you want to spend years going around and searching the internet looking for old or new parts then go do it. But for the people that just want to go out and buy a motor built buy Butler or Kauffman its going to cost in the ballpark of what I said..

https://butlerperformance.com/c-1267...-complete.html

Here's one example of what I mean..

Not every body wants used parts for a engine there going beat on at the track..

There is nothing inaccurate about my assessment ..

I would never advise someone who only wants to go 10.50 now only 10.90 in a 2800lb car to spend 12K at one of the big "Pontiac" shops. Sorry just not me.
To me, that is just plain dumb. Intakes do not wear out, carbs, only the throttle shaft/base, cams just dont really wear, roller lifters do ,heads, everything that wears is replaceable. Pistons can last a long time. Rods, buy new or low use. Cranks, same. But Pontiac cranks breaking in under 600HP builds does not happen a whole lot.
People who just call up a Pontiac shop either have more money than most, or less common sense. And there rare reasons the best of the best dont.
If I would have finished that 900HP pump gas build I would have had, maybe 15K in it.
Give me 12,500$ and I could build a serious engine. Better than you could just buy it form a shop. So that is the kind of advise I give. But you need to be pretty handy to do it.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

I would never advise someone who only wants to go 10.50 now only 10.90 in a 2800lb car to spend 12K at one of the big "Pontiac" shops. Sorry just not me.
To me, that is just plain dumb. Intakes do not wear out, carbs, only the throttle shaft/base, cams just dont really wear, roller lifters do ,heads, everything that wears is replaceable. Pistons can last a long time. Rods, buy new or low use. Cranks, same. But Pontiac cranks breaking in under 600HP builds does not happen a whole lot.
People who just call up a Pontiac shop either have more money than most, or less common sense. And there rare reasons the best of the best dont.
If I would have finished that 900HP pump gas build I would have had, maybe 15K in it.
Give me 12,500$ and I could build a serious engine. Better than you could just buy it form a shop. So that is the kind of advise I give. But you need to be pretty handy to do it.

Well, I never gave advice for anything .

I just gave my opinion of what a motor would cost to build with more then stock hp and parts. So basically you're calling me dumb here. You don't know me to know this . The OP never stipulated how he wanted to build it .Just asked what it would cost. So rather then fire off at me how wrong I am , you could of just said you have a cheaper way then doing it with all new parts.. I gave my opinion and you gave yours.. So why you are still trying to prove me wrong on this when im not, is beyond me.. Building a motor is more then just buying parts . Most people don't even build there own engines, there's cash that's spent on that to add to the list.. Just the machine work alone can range from 1000-2000. Port work , new valves / springs , valve job add that too . And a roller cam cost more the 150 its more like 350-400 plus lifters are 400-500 bucks . So if someone wants to go and buy used parts , yes its cheaper. But please don't just say im wrong because im not . And I know for a fact what gach had in his motor and it was a lot more the 15000.00. So Idk what you're talking about there....

[Dragncar]

Charlie, I did not say you were anything. Plenty of people here assemble their own engines. The cam in my engine, I bought used. 150$, nice cam. Lifters, paid 225$ for them, used. Intake on the engine, used, 140$.
I am trying to say there are ways to get the costs down, help the OP out. Especially at his modest HP goals.
There are assembly tricks that just take time and patience, steady hand and it makes your engine a lot more durable. Never spun a rod bearing in my life. Never had a high RPM Pontiac either. But that said, willing to help out am member with some advice/info other than sending him to a shop for a turn key engine.
In my mind, there is no fun in saying I have a "KRE" engine, "Butler" engine. Anyone can just buy them, plenty can not afford them.
BTW, what does Gach and the money he spent have to do with me. He bought a billet crank. I have 500$ into my Ross pistons and Scat crank together. Big difference. He paid more for the stuff than he sold it to me for, rebuilt. It was a good deal. Trying to pass it on right now.

[charlie66]

Troy, I gave the OP my first thoughts on what I felt it would cost after I read his post . As for what you said, you implied that im dumb by saying " I would never advise someone who only wants to go 10.50 now only 10.90 in a 2800lb car to spend 12K at one of the big "Pontiac" shops. Sorry just not me. To me, that is just plain dumb".
Never dawned on me to think of used parts for my estimation because I never have ever bought used parts to build an engine before. I never gave him advise either. Just my opinion is all. He will do it the way he chooses to. Then you got up in arms about what I said. You didn't have to come at me like that. You have your way , I have my way and he will have his. I never gave him bad or wrong information like you made it out to be.

And yeah, it is fun to build your own engine if you are capable of doing so, is the OP ? IDK . I also don't think there is anything wrong with saying KRE or Butler built someone's engine either , That is a subjective thing right there to think that or not.. I met a guy at Norwalk this past summer that was proud and happy to tell me KRE built his motor.. You are all over this board giving your opinion and I've never once came at you like the way you did at me . So next time don't go making it seem like I have no clue. I know more then you will ever give me credit for...

The point I was trying to make by bring up Gach was for no reason then as a comparison of what you were going to build and that you brought your build with his heads into this as part of your point on cost. Gach basically built what you wanted to build . So ok you're not spending the money on a billet crank so the cost will be less , got your point. But he and you didn't have to pay what the original guy did to have that caliber of a head made . Both of you only paid probably a third of what it would have cost if you had to do it from scratch. And the deal you got doesn't come along every day . So to get what you have for the money you have it for you have to be patient and wait for it if you're lucky you'll get it like you did.. I almost bought them heads.. But I decided to go faster with a turbo instead..

[GregM329]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

One of the most important, and free things to do in a engine like this is make sure your main bearings have the oil slot, or hole drilled in the right place and do the P Dude trick with the thrust bearing. That is free modification anyone can do with a vise, drill and files.

I'm assembling a 400 block soon, and I was not aware of the above quoted crank and thrust bearing specs. Can you tell me where I can out more on these techniques? Thanks!

Greg