[charlie66]

So does anyone know what the octane rating is for E60? There must be a way to find out right? If they can figure E85 is 105 there must be a way to figure it for E60...

[Scott65]

https://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22328
This may help. Not mine, I found it looking around...

[amcmike]

Originally Posted by Douglas Willinger

The name E-85 indicates 85% ethanol. But horrific regulations in the US allow the ethanol content to vary between 51% and 83% ethanol.

The lack of octane posting likely reflects this, and the horrific variance is about thwarting people with non efi automobiles to easily use it, all to slow ethanol's market share.

Yup, and seasonally it varies as well (to improve start-ability in cold temperatures). Too much pump to pump variation to try and run without some kind of closed loop compensation.


I wish they'd just come out with E55 and keep the variation within +/-5% for consistency.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by charlie66

So does anyone know what the octane rating is for E60? There must be a way to find out right? If they can figure E85 is 105 there must be a way to figure it for E60...

Not accurately, unless you know what the gasoline octane is to start with. It could be 10 octane numbers from 84 to 94. You could guess what the octane numbers are on the gasoline, and make a calculation from that, but unless you test every batch, you're shooting in the dark.

As I said, the blending racks can make an infinite number of products from their 2 base fuels, and adjustments. Since E85 has no octane requirement, oil companies could care less if it pounds the pistons and bearings out in your boosted car. They make the fuel for dual/flex fuel cars with no boost, and very reasonable CRs.

Chasing the cheap race fuel will have it's drawbacks that aren't easily solved, and has been reiterated when the ambient temp drops, so does the alcohol content up to 25%.

[Douglas Willinger]

Originally Posted by amcmike

Yup, and seasonally it varies as well (to improve start-ability in cold temperatures). Too much pump to pump variation to try and run without some kind of closed loop compensation.


I wish they'd just come out with E55 and keep the variation within +/-5% for consistency.

Where is the political movement for such a thing?

[amcmike]

Originally Posted by Douglas Willinger

Where is the political movement for such a thing?

Actually forget ethanol altogether and go butanol blends as a renewable fuel. More energy content than ethanol, lower emissions, and without ethanol blend corrosive properties. Unfortunately the octane is close to gasoline, so you won't see an increase there like you do with ethanol.

[johnta1]

Here is a calculator that makes a chart of different octane ratings.

Octane Chart

I also updated the calculator I posted before:
(basically the blurb below calculator)

Ethanol Calc

What I would do is use the calculator above and use straight ethanol with 113 octane and 8.5 gal (for 85%)
Then use 89 octane for the gas part and zero alcohol in it. Use 1.5 gal.
(for 15% gas)


That will give the E85 rate
Use 6 gal. for alcohol and 4 gal for gas for E60





As Brad says there is no actual 'Octane' in alcohols (ethanol/methanol)
The chemical composition makes it 'equivalent' to the gasoline octane rating.

Also there is NO oxygen content in gasoline unless it has alcohol in it.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Not accurately, unless you know what the gasoline octane is to start with. It could be 10 octane numbers from 84 to 94. You could guess what the octane numbers are on the gasoline, and make a calculation from that, but unless you test every batch, you're shooting in the dark.

As I said, the blending racks can make an infinite number of products from their 2 base fuels, and adjustments. Since E85 has no octane requirement, oil companies could care less if it pounds the pistons and bearings out in your boosted car. They make the fuel for dual/flex fuel cars with no boost, and very reasonable CRs.

Chasing the cheap race fuel will have it's drawbacks that aren't easily solved, and has been reiterated when the ambient temp drops, so does the alcohol content up to 25%.

I guess all i can do at this point is put the E95 in and see if it makes the issues go away or lessen.. What you're sayin does make sense to me . Im not sure if they use 87 or 89 as a base . So it is a shot in the dark either way i see now .. Thanks for your input..

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Here is a calculator that makes a chart of different octane ratings.

Octane Chart

I also updated the calculator I posted before:
(basically the blurb below calculator)

Ethanol Calc

What I would do is use the calculator above and use straight ethanol with 113 octane and 8.5 gal (for 85%)
Then use 89 octane for the gas part and zero alcohol in it. Use 1.5 gal.
(for 15% gas)


That will give the E85 rate
Use 6 gal. for alcohol and 4 gal for gas for E60





As Brad says there is no actual 'Octane' in alcohols (ethanol/methanol)
The chemical composition makes it 'equivalent' to the gasoline octane rating.

Also there is NO oxygen content in gasoline unless it has alcohol in it.

Thank you John. Seems to be if i do what you're sayin it comes out that the 60% is still up there at 103 .

I wounder what would happen if i bought striaght ethanol and added it to the E60 and tested it until it raised to the level i need. Id be curious to see if that would do it..

Thanks for the new calc you shared!

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Scott65

https://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22328
This may help. Not mine, I found it looking around...

That was interesting. Going buy the comments though he never did E60 with out mixing it with a higher octane fuel.

Thanks for sharing that .

[Scott65]

Without a sensor to act as a safety net, tuning your timing for E50 seems the safest course... You may leave a little power on the table. But it should keep the pistons whole, instead of holed....

[charlie66]

Why is E50 better then E85? im looking for more octane.

[Scott65]

I said tuning for E50 would be safer, not better... If your ok with testing or mixing every batch, then that's cool. But when the switch to winter blend happens it'll involve buying E85 or 98 canned and mixing. You can have the best of both worlds with regards to max power and safety with an ethanol content sensor. Timing and fueling can be automatically adjusted based on e content.

[dataway]

If any of you have an E85 vehicle you can just hook up a scanner and it will tell you the ethanol percentage in whatever fuel the vehicle is currently using. Doesn't help you with octane ... but at least you know what the ethanol content is compared to what the pump says.

[Sirrotica]

Something many people don't know is loading racks or fuel depots for the most part are connected to a pipeline system that comes from the refineries. All products come through that pipeline from diesel to high octane gasoline, av fuel etc. When they switch product, there is what they call slop, that is a mixture of fuels until the switch over is complete and pure product runs out.

The slop is put in a tank and used to blend other fuels according to the specific gravity it has. The additive are blended in just before it goes into a tanker, then it goes to the gas stations and retail outlets. Having been inside of the fuel racks, I know basically how the blend their fuels from what they told me, and I was shown. It's a much different process than I envisioned it. I figured the products had different conduits, but they don't, it all comes through one conduit.

Some larger pipelines use a bullet between different products to seperate them. It's dropped in the line at the source and removed at the end user. Kind of fascinating in how the fuel is dispensed.

Ethanol is trucked as far as I know, I've never seen it shipped any other way.

[Scott65]

Originally Posted by dataway

If any of you have an E85 vehicle you can just hook up a scanner and it will tell you the ethanol percentage in whatever fuel the vehicle is currently using. Doesn't help you with octane ... but at least you know what the ethanol content is compared to what the pump says.

Agreed. But additionally, many of the popular stand alone ecu's will read the same content sensor thats used by the factory flex vehicles. They then adjust fuel and timing based on ethanol content. You can then tune the engine, and have automatic compensation for changing ethanol content.

[charlie66]

Yeah i am. Its a price im willing to pay to not pay 12 bucks a gallon.

But at 30 and 40 pounds of boost E50 is out of the question.

Im just curious what the actual octane is at 60% because i ran into problems on the higher boost levels. 20 psi and down i had no problems..

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Scott65

Agreed. But additionally, many of the popular stand alone ecu's will read the same content sensor thats used by the factory flex vehicles. They then adjust fuel and timing based on ethanol content. You can then tune the engine, and have automatic compensation for changing ethanol content.

I'm pretty certain, as JLmounce mentioned earlier, you have to step up to the terminator ECU or the like if you want to run ethanol and sense the amount of ethanol like a new vehicles do. And that's a substantial bump in price.

I know the lower priced Holley, Snipers, Stealths, and FiTech, as well as the MSD throttle body stuff, will not support an ethanol based tune and change things on the fly. I checked into that when I switched our vehicles over, because even with the variances in the 10% garbage gas I'm seeing, I needed to know if I have to fudge the AFR to compensate or if the EFI is capable on the fly. No go with the more entry level price points. In fact, they told me that's how they keep the prices down on this stuff, by not having some of the benefits of the higher end units.

I mentioned running ethanol and using an EFI setup to sense ethanol content to avoid this whole mess the OP is in way back on the first post.

I'm guessing the OP is either using a carb or a different EFI setup that doesn't support changes on the fly, or we probably wouldn't be having this discussion?? I don't recall seeing any mention of what he has or is dealing with.

[Scott65]

Charlie uses FAST if I remember correctly. And no, I don't think it supports the content sensor. But at his power levels and boost levels, I'd be looking for something that would. He's making incredible power out of a 4 cylinder! Its really impressive. And in my opinion worth the investment into a system that will more easily keep it together.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Scott65

Charlie uses FAST if I remember correctly. And no, I don't think it supports the content sensor. But at his power levels and boost levels, I'd be looking for something that would. He's making incredible power out of a 4 cylinder! Its really impressive. And in my opinion worth the investment into a system that will more easily keep it together.

Agree